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Stefani H  0:06  
Welcome to another episode of Creative Distillation. Your hosts Jeff and Brad from the University of Colorado boulders leads School of Business discuss entrepreneurship research while enjoying fine craft beverages. Previously on Creative Distillation, Brad and Jeff conduct their field research from the conference room at the Deming Center. In keeping with the Halloween season, Jeff walked Brad and our guest Deseret Pacheco through a tasting of assorted pumpkin beer. This time we're still at the Deming center discussing academic research with , Associate Professor of Entrepreneurship at IESE in Barcelona, and co author of a paper titled "" Enjoy and cheers.

Jeff  0:56  
Happy Halloween and welcome back to Creative distillation. I'm your host, Jeff York, research director at the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the Leeds School of Business at the University of Colorado Boulder. It is my favorite day of the year and I'm with so my favorite people. I'm so happy right now.

Brad  1:15  
Hey, Jeff. It's Brad Warner here and yeah, I can't wait till this day is over. Yeah. Although I'm really excited because we're through the pumpkin beers, I can go back to my New Zealand style Pilsner. And we have an awesome guest all the way from Barcelona.

Jeff  1:29  
We do have an amazing guest does Ray Pacheco is a Professor of Entrepreneurship at ESA International School of Business, or is the International Business School Business School. I see I knew I screwed up the business school, I can introduce anyone's University properly Deseret, but I can't introduce you. Deseret is an alumna of our Ph. D. program. Amazing scholar, quite honestly, I'm gonna embarrass her just a little bit. Without her I would not be in this profession, quite honestly, because I had no idea what I was doing. I was applying to schools thinking I wanted to do my PhD because I was like, I care about climate change and environment. And you know, that was basically the depth of my thinking. And I came here and interviewed with Deseret, I remember going on a walk and we were walking around cu campus. He said, have you read Natural Capitalism? I was like, what's that? That's just like a foundational text. And then God has so many other foundational thoughts about this field because she'd already more or less completed her PhD in environmental studies or Well, okay, you were doing your masters Environmental Studies. I'm sorry. She's shaking her head and correcting me as she always does. We've written multiple papers together. And I just couldn't be more excited to have her visiting us here at ¶¶Òõ¶ÌÊÓƵ Boulder. She's just been teaching in New York City. And we managed to get her to fly out here and visit us. Yeah,

Brad  2:45  
I would say does, right. The other thing is, though, you're a repeat guest on the pack. Yeah. Which is fabulous. So Jeff, nice story. But that's awesome. Thank you. Thank you for coming in.

Jeff  2:59  
Oh, yeah. Thank you.

Desiree Pacheco  3:00  
My pleasure.

Jeff  3:01  
No, we're obviously really excited to have you here. And we're going to talk about your paper that just came out and research policy, which excellent journal that sort of it's interesting journal. It's a little different, because it sort of goes on the in between, like, I mean, it is a Business Journal. I think it's fair to say you've despite the title doesn't say anything about business.

Desiree Pacheco  3:23  
Yes, it's a Business Journal. But it also touches upon more sort of macro forces like it started. Of course, with a little bit more on the policy side, it looks at technological evolutions and industry level, right type of research as well,

Jeff  3:36  
right. And implications for policymakers, and implications of policy. I mean, perhaps it's obvious, but for businesses, and this is something that, you know, it's looked at it in a bunch of our journals, but this is actually an explicit home for these kinds of papers. A lot of the work you and I have done over the years together has been about how does various institutional forces affect entrepreneurial entry into renewable and sustainable energy businesses. And so this is a continuation of this the papers called social movements and entrepreneurial action and ecological perspective and your co authors Ted curry, that were his TED data. See,

Desiree Pacheco  4:12  
Ted is he's a professor at Portland State University. So he was my colleague there as well.

Jeff  4:18  
I knew he was at Oregon. I didn't know that and Brian I know you'll be excited to go access this this paper immediately. You know what

Brad  4:24  
I'm looking for the 4995 in my pocket just to be able to send some money to Spain.

Jeff  4:31  
It goes right as soon as you buy access to this paper it goes to disarray

Brad  4:34  
of course yeah, of course

Jeff  4:35  
all of it. Doesn't go to the journal it goes to her and her school

Desiree Pacheco  4:42  
I will use the funding to purchase kava for the next episode. Perfect exercise

Jeff  4:47  
to enjoy my four noses pump action. We're gonna make this discussion quick because we actually got to get Deseret a decent drink because yeah, so far we've offered her an awful antigenic mushroom tea and We're not being very good.

Brad  5:01  
No, this was a terrible host. Actually. She was good. And by the way for the effect that Deseret has had on your life, Jeff, what's right, make sure you take care of

Jeff  5:09  
this woman. Well, okay, I'm taking her to breakfast tomorrow and take care today or tomorrow, and I'm doing my

Brad  5:15  
best. Okay? Just

Jeff  5:18  
like about knee high to a grasshopper is my dad's. My selection of beverages, but let's talk about his favorite. So I don't think I've ever actually talked about my research on the podcast. I tried not to, but it does, right. And I have collaborated on a number of papers. And of course, he's written papers, not with me as well. So sorry, tell us a little bit about like,

Brad  5:37  
I want to, I want to actually back off, because this is great talking about Jeff's paper for a second and collaboration. How was Jeff as a collaborator? I'd love I think that our listeners they hear about Jeff, they hear about his life and things have changed his life.

Desiree Pacheco  5:51  
You know, I will say, I will say that Jeff is really fun to work with evidence shows, if you look at how many papers we've done together, right? Normally, you'd be somebody you don't like after one. We have item count.

Jeff  6:10  
That's kind of crazy. I don't know the number either. When we were here we were doctoral,

Desiree Pacheco  6:17  
PhD students, we started working together. And I was here at ¶¶Òõ¶ÌÊÓƵ Leeds. And you were still in Virginia,

Jeff  6:23  
no actually interviewing to apply to come here to do my PhD. And then I loved it. I mean, this and to this day, they're like, oh, yeah, it's such BS. But I was like, I liked it here so much. I was like, I want to work here.

Brad  6:38  
And so how did you have to do all the work

Desiree Pacheco  6:39  
that no, the way this worked out? So Jeff comes here? Yes, I am a PhD student here. And I'm telling Jeff about all the opportunities, right, all of this streaming that Jeff comes back and says, Well, you know, I like to you both are so much. I don't want to do my PhD there. Because that means I won't get a job there. Yes. Right. So and, of course, why do I think well, yeah, right, like he's gonna get awesome. was wrong, and how wrong was I? And so anyway, that he made his decision based on that. And then the guy comes interviews here and gets a job straight out of his PhD program here. Like, what are the chances, right, that's,

Brad  7:25  
by the way, any guests that we can just talk about Jeff is like, my dream guest.

Desiree Pacheco  7:31  
So, so we started collaborating since we were PhD students. And it was really fun, because I think, you know, in many ways, we complement each other very well. Jeff is a dreamer. No, it's true. It's PCs. And I don't want to say I'm trying to be positive. But I, I bring things a little down realism, and I kind of operationalize them. Maybe he does that he can do that, too, of course. But I think we complement each other very well. Because Jeff, you start with the ideas, and just

Brad  8:04  
tell me about something. I'd like to talk about just being a dreamer for a second.

Desiree Pacheco  8:09  
You know, I can't think of a particular example. But like, if you tell Jeff an idea, and you said, Well, how about going there, he's gonna come up with 20 different routes that we could take for that, oh, we could do this. Or we could do that. How about we do this way? Right. And so

Brad  8:27  
there's some ads for that mean?

Desiree Pacheco  8:28  
There's, there's I'm fact research that shows how do you become creative and do good work? It's That's exactly it is divergent thinking, you think, three different ways. And I think that's what Jeff brings into a lot of the products that we've done, he takes things and he just spins them in different ways. And I think we complement each other very well. And it's actually really nice. I'll take one of those, I'll take two of those, and then you know, pop out, this does give us some form, then I can give it back to him. Then by the time that has some weird shape I get he keeps forwarding and you know, he keeps moving.

Jeff  8:59  
We just published something last year, we did that lit review. Yes, I forgot what we entrepreneurship for the public good. Yeah, I think there were like 15 titles and almost as many authors but my favorite part of the project, no offense to the other co authors, that was amazing project got to work with so many people who are like heroes of mine and, and people who are like students of mine who are becoming heroes of mine, it was kind of amazing. That ones in the Academy of Management animals. And the coolest thing was we got to work together again, it's been a while that was the most recent thing we did this qualitative analysis papers. And so we're reading all these papers like basically every paper. We're reading like 100 papers about

Desiree Pacheco  9:40  
entrepreneurship and environmental entrepreneurs. So we have to read them all to then come up with a summary of what it means and what do we really know

Jeff  9:48  
about. So this is a typical example of what Deseret saying is like, I would just keep writing new themes. Like I'll just keep writing theme after thing I had like 300 some odd themes we'd come up with, out of the paper And the Deseret has a gift for saying, okay, that's fine. Now let's actually ironically in the in the context is Paco and ironically dead on, let's distill that in down into something that somebody can actually understand and it might be helpful. Thank you finally Oh, yeah, no, I mean, she's really good at that.

Brad  10:19  
Are you two working on something? Now, by the way? I know we're talking about one specific paper. But is there something in the future recurring having

Jeff  10:25  
to revisit and catch up? No, no? Well, we talked about like, both of us are really addressed this idea of how entrepreneurship addresses environmental problems. And we both written a lot of papers about that. But neither of us and I don't think anybody really has our mutual mentor and co author and friend Tom Dean probably has come closest sensei of anyone of creating like a real clear theoretical model of how you engage in addressing environmental problems to entrepreneurship. And I mean, clearly, that's a critical question, specifically a climate change, and Deseret and I both read very widely on this topic. So we've talked about working on theory paper on that together. But we've also just been so busy with all our other projects. And

Brad  11:09  
as an entrepreneur in the room, that would be helpful. Right? And some, some guidance here, and what would actually create impact, right, I think the world is ready for some of those solutions.

Desiree Pacheco  11:18  
It's hard. It's really understanding outcomes, which we are very behind in Yes, yeah. So what is really the outcome of this entrepreneurial initiatives? We don't fully know, the social and the environmental outcome, right? We know the economic outcome. Sometimes we measure activities, like we know, okay, I, we've sold this many panels, we've done this much. Okay, that's good. But truly, what is the impact? And sometimes the reality is, is that there's also secondary effects. Maybe there's also a dark side to some of this that we're not even looking at?

Jeff  11:51  
Yeah, it's kind of like, even now that we've gotten closer on like, people trying to talk about measuring carbon emissions. So we've been preparing class, and as you start doing that, it's so hard to try to measure because like, okay, let's say a service industry, a credit card company, right? Their carbon emissions are not really embodied in their activity. It's embodied in the supply chain. So going all the way down there and trying to figure out, okay, how do they actually influence change? And that's why I think I'd been deserted feel free to straighten me out if this isn't your perspective. But having worked together, I think our perspective has always been well, if you're trying to answer these questions about particularly climate change, but more broadly, environmental problems. It's not adequate to just say, okay, you know, how does someone like Korean organic foods company, or, you know, I mean, that's, that's a lovely thing. It's nothing wrong with it. I mean, we're all for entrepreneurship. But thinking more about the systemic societal level, inputs that influence people's propensity, do that. But now we're starting to evolve this literature and lots of young smart scholars are starting to get you know, which is the way academia should work. Brad was amazed to learn, we don't get paid for these papers.

Brad  13:05  
Last week, well, here's the thing that we do at our salaries. Yeah, well, we do. Right. So here's the thing. So the two of you can't do it on your own. Right. The problem is, are so big, but the clock's ticking. Well, yeah, we're right. So I mean, we're all aware. So how do you drink more nightmares? How do you create awareness in your industry to say, Hey, folks, instead of figuring out, it's nice to pitch a VC on a sunny day, let's actually

Jeff  13:32  
Brent loves that finding is the dumbest. We're gonna get Gary back on here. Talking about this and your point is very first get

Brad  13:40  
I'm my life is dedicated to impact, and how do we create impact on the entrepreneurial level, and it starts with entrepreneurs, but it also starts with facilitation from academics as well. And you need to be bold, and

Jeff  13:53  
the kindest thing you've ever said about academics, the entire history of this,

Brad  13:56  
it is because I am starting to see that there is linkage. But if everybody just has kind of scattered, we're gonna land on some solutions. But we're not going to solve the entire problem fast enough.

Desiree Pacheco  14:08  
You know, it starts with entrepreneurs and academics, but it also starts with investors. Yep. Yeah. I think that the solution to many of our problems? Well, obviously, it will come with scaling, the actual technological or institutional solutions, business model solutions that many entrepreneurs have already invented. The question is, how do we scale this, and putting a lot of that capital into scaling these solutions is what's going to bring. So what that means is also putting out there that impact investing is going to be very important because what happens to many of these problems is that they require a lot of capital, right? And when I say capital, and they're capital intensive solutions, and so a lot of venture capitalists or investors, you know, think that hardware is hard, right? They stay away from capital intensive investments, right? And so we need them, we have a gap right now in those investments. And without it, we can't scale the solutions that are out there. And with scaling them, we are absolutely not going to be able to.

Brad  15:11  
But I will say before you give me an insight buzzer here, I would say, as an investor, as someone that spent time in the VC world, some of the cares about this problem, to validate the solutions, the money will come, because the payoff in both social and dollars is big. And so I think that just saying, yes, capital is important, but capital follows really good, vetted ideas. And I think that we need to be there. I mean, you may disagree with me, but and there, there probably are some examples where funding, I actually really firmly believe the funding is there. Well, capital

Desiree Pacheco  15:48  
tends to follow more developed ideas. But earlier stage ideas, typically are funded either by government or philanthropists. And what happens is that we do have some ideas that are out there, I'm happy to talk about what some of them may look like, we don't we don't need to go there. But the capital really isn't following as much. And part of the reason is because there is a risk that comes with it. Absolutely. That's why I'm talking about impact investors, knowing that the risks may be higher, knowing that the returns may not be as high. But the alternative is, as we know, and so so yes, capital follows good ideas. And we've seen that in many times. But it tends to follow good ideas that have business models that are very scalable. And unfortunately, when it comes to climate change, for example, a lot of those solutions tend to be more yeah, like I said, capital intensive, and then the risk becomes greater.

Jeff  16:40  
It's like biotech or like medical product investment, things that take a long time. We need that

Desiree Pacheco  16:47  
pharma model. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I was just actually having this conversation with a student a release last week, she was used to be in that industry and saying, it just feels like we need a bit of that model. In here that more long term vision, bigger sort of

Brad  17:02  
footstool, outsourcing to entrepreneurs.

Desiree Pacheco  17:04  
Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. We know that a lot of this innovation.

Jeff  17:10  
Action ones like fun Halloween. I'm looking at what's the actual inside of this, we look at an entrepreneur do that wants to raise capital? Like, how do they have to think about this problem? The entrepreneurs, sorry to put you on the spot. I've never had anyone else do an actionable insight. That even Brad That's how much I admire you.

Desiree Pacheco  17:27  
Okay, well, I think the entrepreneur needs to know who their audience is. That's, to me the most important part, right, obviously. And so depending on what their solution is, right? Again, how do you bring it to scale, you can innovate? How are you going to bring it,

Jeff  17:43  
we see this all the time, we just saw a student the other day pitching an amazing business. I won't go into any details. I don't wanna reveal who he was. But he was doing something that Brad and I and the other people in the room all cared very deeply about. But he continued to talk about these one off examples. We change this person's life, we help them out of poverty. And we're like, that's great. But there's a big problem here, like, how do you scale? And I think that happens a lot with environmental and social entrepreneurs, they can tell a great story, but they don't understand. And it's not because the people listening are a bunch of jerks. And they're like law. I mean, yes, they want their return they want, but oftentimes, they don't even want their monetary return, they just want the impact return. And if you can't scale, you can't scale, you're gonna have impact. But that brings us to your paper, actually, because solar is scaling. You know, I have a 15 year old, very, very smart young person who will tell me things like, Well, what does it matter? Because climate change is going to kill us all? And I'm just like, maybe, yeah, that could happen. But I see a lot indicators that make me optimistic. And one of them is the growth of solar, which is what your paper and research policy looks at.

Desiree Pacheco  18:54  
Yes, yes. I mean, and I think with solar, obviously, it's become more competitive. So economically, that scalability also comes from its ability to compete. Yes, right. There's no doubt. But how did it get to that point? And that's where part of this paper is because this paper takes place like 15 years before, like, 1010, right?

Jeff  19:17  
beat us up for studying things that aren't happening right now. Or like, boom, we take the things that happened 15 years ago, and then we can apply them to right now.

Desiree Pacheco  19:26  
Exactly. Because before these technologies are fully competitive, and you let the market handle the demand, which is where solar likely is at right now. In many places, maybe not everywhere in the world. Here it is. I call Ron. Yeah, it depends how much sun you have, right? Really make it efficient, and competitive. And of course, incentives help. But before all of that, that's where this paper started, right. So. So what we're looking at is, how does the social movement push the industry and when we're talking about a social movement, you know, a lot of the research that has been done a In this space has looked at the environmental social movement, broadly speaking, sort of pushing the industry and said, Hey, support clean energy, do this do that. And specifically with that, what we looked at as what we call technology focused social movement organizations, these are organizations that are not your typical sort of Greenpeace, right? This is an organization that is more professional and dedicated to a solution, in this case, clean energy to a specific technology, technology, but not necessarily to solar or wind, right. So that's why I'm saying broadly the category of clean energy,

Jeff  20:34  
but it's not like what I've always thought about when I explain this to students, because I actually teach this in my class, based on a lot of your work, actually, you can tell the difference, it's who's going to show up to protest a wind farm, it ain't going to be the technology focus. No, it might be an environmental movement that cares about climate change, but also cares about birds migratory paths. So they have this blend of almost a conservation or wildlife with environmental and technology, focus, social movement is very focused on a specific solution to a specific problem, generally, is, as you pointed out, it's not this very, like, you've got to do lithium batteries. It's more like, hey, you know, alternative energy,

Desiree Pacheco  21:17  
right? It's these organizations, of course, recognize that there's an environmental issue. So of course, and they work with that, but they bring also help to understand and really accelerate the technologies that can help that. And in this case, we looked at clean energy. So most social movement organizations, and so they have an important role, and here in the USA had a huge role in pushing solar, and in pushing wind. And this is what this particular paper is in the solar energy sector, looking at how these technology as demos, really push the industry. But then the question became, okay, so when do you let go? You're a social movement organization, you're pushing the industry, right, great. How long do you need to stick there?

Jeff  22:00  
You can see, it's up and running. You know, they're having conferences, we can stop now.

Desiree Pacheco  22:05  
And so this, you see that a lot. What this is one of the questions that we were asking in this in this paper is like, what is it about the industry and the industries that you're sort of helping, that dictates how much you as a movement organization help. And in this particular case, in terms of eliciting and really bring in more entry, we're looking at solar energy installers, okay, that's what we do is only Okay, so you we use establishment data to look at installers like how much you need to be there for more installers to in the end keep coming in. And what we find, and I think this is one of the most important pieces here is that you would think, okay, so these, these fmoS, they're very important when the industry is just starting.

Jeff  22:49  
Alright, so you're looking at the solar installers, and you're saying like, Okay, so these these these movements come in, they support the idea of we need these things, and the industry starts to take off. And okay, I actually haven't read this paper, because it just came out literally, like a week ago, and I should have read it I haven't yet go into. But you know, I would say, well, it's probably really important, the beginning of the industry. And once the industry reaches like something close to grid parity, they probably don't matter so

Desiree Pacheco  23:15  
much. Right? Exactly. And so we did find that matters a lot early on, because of the industry, the industry is still not very well defined. So they it really needs this movement organizations to push it. But what we also find is that for those more developed industries, so this will do within at the state level, so in those states like California, sure, California that's more developed. So the power is developed their, their movement is very important later on as well. So in the middle stage, not as much, but early and later stages is the most important part. And when you ask yourself, well, why? Well, we went on, we interviewed these organizations, and we said, Why do you think we got this findings? And some of them said, Well, have you seen what's happening here? The moment sort of becomes bigger, and more legit, start to get more opposition as well, oh, my God, and then you start to get the backlash and all that. And so we that's interesting.

Jeff  24:13  
That's actually really cool. And you can step back and say buzzer that was that's really cool.

Desiree Pacheco  24:18  
You will because the industry starts to really become a threat.

Jeff  24:22  
Yeah, no, this is what he's saying.

Desiree Pacheco  24:26  
movement needs to come because but really important. This is because the industry is still not fully economically competitive. If it would have been, you let the market take care of that. Right. But this is an industry that is not fully competitive yet because we measure it, we did it all the way to 2010. And we did it up until 2010 precisely for that reason. Okay, so we did it for that reason we left. We left it that might not be the story today, but back when we finished it was a 14 year panel, but we finished it in 2010. For that reason, we wanted to only use the years when solar was still not that competitive. But then the backlash comes, right opposition starts to get, and you have to renew the interest. Because people say people think like, Oh, we're good. And that's exactly when these SMEs have to come back.

Brad  25:17  
For the zoo.

Jeff  25:19  
Interests, this is chilling, thrilling sounds of the hunt house by Walt Disney sound effects 1964, my favorite Halloween album. So this is actually fascinating because I haven't written about this. And you know, hey, as my advisor was toying with it, you had an idea good enough to steal. So you know, run with this if you're a doctoral student. We're seeing this in green building now. Like for the longest time green building was like, Yeah, sure, we'll do LEED, it's all good. It's all fine. Eventually, once it achieved, it's starting to taper off and level out now. Particularly, I'm talking about LEED leadership and energy, environmental design certification. And what's happening is in the southern states, in particular, but but other states as well, lead supporting policies are getting repealed, but that's actually being driven by the chemical industry. It's not being driven by like, builders. They're just saying, Hey, okay, alright, screw this. And our bail, say, What leads doing great, why do we need to support it? That's fascinating.

Desiree Pacheco  26:17  
There's different reasons. But what the other thing the Eskimos told me, it's like, you know, it's like, with anything, you need to renew the interest, right? Because if you're not constantly, especially when you're in a state where you feel oh, California, it's good, right? Right, it's gonna take off, sometimes, you really have to, like push a little more, also, because there's different reasons. Like for example, in the state of California, they also had some policies where all new buildings had to come in with photovoltaics, etc. And that has also led to a bit of a backlash, right. And so the movement has had to continue to push it and be like, yeah, there's other issues that start to surface. Yeah. Well, you think

Brad  26:55  
I'm just sitting back and listening because this is incredibly interesting. You should say better

Desiree Pacheco  26:59  
than pumpkin beer. Oh, much.

Brad  27:04  
But that is a low bar. So I think your work is fascinating. So let me ask you this, though. So your your studies stopped in 2010? If you took from 2010 to today, what's your gut telling you?

Desiree Pacheco  27:16  
My gut would tell me it depends on the location. Again, if sonar is fully economic, competitive, there's a good chance that the movement is live needed less, unless there's a lot of political opposition.

Jeff  27:30  
Yeah. So I mean, because

Desiree Pacheco  27:32  
what's happening? Well, obviously, we all know how polarized these issues are. I mean, yes. And so there may be some campaigns that people might not just see it from an economic perspective. And if that's the case, then the movement is going to have to stick around.

Jeff  27:49  
I think the thing that people have to think about and cases like this, when we talk about environmentally relevant technology, there's a reason that these things haven't been adopted, like, no one's out there being an evil bastard saying, geez, I just want to heat up the planet and make sure everybody lives in misery for the next 500 years. But there are a hell of a lot of people out there saying, I want to make a lot of money. Exactly. And the way for those people, if they're in extractive industries, carbon producing industries right now is to keep that train rolling. And the best way to do that is to stop these industries from growing. And so there's a really interesting issue. Oh, and by the way, the vast majority political money and that's involved in this country comes from such industries, because they're enormous ly profitable. One thing I always talk about why I talk about this is like, this is not a liberal, conservative issue. This is a scientific issue about how we're going to live our lives, and where we're going to get the resources we need to live it. And as soon as we make it political, it becomes a real morass. Mess.

Brad  28:47  
But if you give people an economic reason to do something yet, right, and you show them a pathway, I think the change is much easier. Oh,

Desiree Pacheco  28:55  
one thing that is actually accelerating, also, the adoption of solar is the need for energy independence. And so if you take that, which is less polarized have an issue, as well. I mean, I see it in Puerto Rico, being from there and after hurricanes and the current situation with the electric utility. The adoption of solar is growing significantly, and it has nothing to do with environmental reasons

Brad  29:22  
in your thinking about Ukraine and Europe.

Unknown Speaker  29:24  
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I mean, we're seeing it

Jeff  29:27  
as well. Yes. Yeah. Awesome. Well, real quick. Final actual insight, and this is something I've done, where I'd be really curious to see if your research line of your research would help support this, but but I think it's often a framing issue. As you were talking about earlier, entrepreneurs need to be understand both your point and Brad's point. Talking about renewable energy as an environmental goal is fine for many audiences. But as soon as you make it I'm not saying you should say different things to different people based on our beliefs. I'm gonna say as soon as you make it some kind of philanthropic endeavor, or something of like what will just support this, regardless of the price? It's not even necessary, and it's really hurtful. I see students doing this all the time in my classes.

Desiree Pacheco  30:16  
It goes back to that way, who is your audience? There's a there's a paper that I read, and I, I can't remember what journal it was, that was looking at how entrepreneurs need to frame these issues, depending on who's their audience. And what they found is, if you're pitching to an impact investor, or philanthropist, you have to bring in the social or the environmental. Of course, there is no doubt about it. It was just an interview. If you're pitching to a more traditional investor, you just stick with your economic arguments, and you don't bring the rest in.

Jeff  30:51  
You're like, Yes, that's true. Right. And of course, we think that's going to help us scale faster. Yes. So there you go. Yeah.

Desiree Pacheco  30:57  
I mean, it seems like common sense. But it's interesting to see that it is backed up. That's the

Jeff  31:01  
thing is like a lot of times with our research I think we take because it's like well, it might have even happened on this podcast from time to time. Research or be critiqued as being obvious. I think it just did. It's obvious. It's obvious in hindsight, it was done by Deseret Well, right? All right. Well, we better wrap up and go celebrate Halloween. Happy Halloween to you guys. This has been so cheers to my people hanging out. Yeah, we can't. Was there anything that will make us sound we can click together? We've got

Brad  31:30  
all right. Yeah, here we go. Awesome. Well, that

Jeff  31:32  
was our most resounding cheers ever. But since it wasn't I'll give you a little bit of to go out on.

Brad  31:40  
Here we go. Last one for the season.

Desiree Pacheco  31:42  
Happy Halloween. Happy

Jeff  31:42  
Halloween everyone. So my name is Jeff York. Our guest today has been Dr. Deseret Pacheco of the SA International School of Business with multiple campuses around the world and the paper. It's my Deseret is first author and then also Ted curry, social movements and entrepreneurial action, ecological perspective. It's up and press that research policy does right. Thank you for joining us.

Desiree Pacheco  32:07  
Thank you. It's wonderful to be here with you and in Halloween. Happy Halloween.

Jeff  32:10  
And Brad I'm so glad you've enjoyed this pumpkin beer tasting.

Brad  32:15  
It's over. Thank God.

Jeff  32:16  
He thinks it's

Stefani H  32:22  
We hope you enjoyed this episode of Creative Distillation recorded live on location at Deming Center on the ¶¶Òõ¶ÌÊÓƵ Boulder campus. Learn more about our research guest on the faculty and research page at . Her paper "" appears in , check the show notes for a link. We'd love to hear your feedback and ideas, email us at CDpodcast@colorado.edu. And please be sure to Subscribe to Creative Distillation wherever you get your podcasts. The Creative Distillation podcast is made possible by the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado Boulders Leeds School of Business. For more information, please visit deming.colorado.edu. That's d-e-m-i-n-g and click the Creative Distillation link. Creative Distillation is produced by Joel Davis at Analog Digital Arts. Our theme music is "Whiskey Before Breakfast" performed by your humble hosts, Brad and Jeff. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here next week for the next round of Creative Distillation if you've enjoyed this episode, you may also enjoy Leeds Business Insights, check them out at .