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Creative Distillation Research Podcast

SPEAKERS

Jeff York, Brad Werner, Isobel O'Neil

 

Jeff York  00:14

Welcome to creative distillation where we distill entrepreneurship research into actionable insights. I'm your host, Jeff York, research director at the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship, joined as always by my co host, Jeff.

 

Brad Werner  00:27

I'm Brad Warner. I am teaching director of the demo center and also an instructor worship and receive Colorado, Boulder, Leeds School of Business.

 

Jeff York  00:36

Fantastic. Good to see you Brad. It's been a while since we've done one of these. We're doing a little bit of a reboot on the old podcast. You know, it's a new year, there's absolutely nothing wrong in the world. All is just perfect. And now we have a new administration in the US. they've solved every problem and nothing nothing but optimism from here, you know, definitely not stuck inside with teenagers doing remote learning, refusing to do their work. And also I'll note today of interest. I'm curious to hear about the weather from our guest in a moment here. But right now here in Colorado, it is one degree at my location. We got one. It's quite lovely actually, like when it's this cold, the snow falls in the most cinematic way. It's looks like looks like a movie outside. It's really nice.

 

Brad Werner  01:24

You're right. I mean, it is beautiful. So Jeff and I for people that are listening, live maybe a mile apart, but it's pretty much a half mile up. So we are we are neighbors as the crow flies. But I tell you, Jeff, these days out in Colorado with these beautiful snowy mornings are really awesome.

 

Jeff York

Yeah, gorgeous. Well, I am super excited today because Brad has been saying, Hey, why don't you ever talk about your research? Jeff? I'm like, Well, first of all, I think that'd be a really arrogant thing to do. And also, you know, I'd rather talk about other people's research, I find it much more interesting to learn about I kind of the time I get done in my research. I'm kind of done with it. All right. I don't want to talk about that anymore. But I was more than happy to invite one of my co authors and a good friend who I've known for years. project that is her project. Absolutely. But I did help a little at the end at least I hope I did. I like to believe I helped I'm not sure I did. But the paper is in press right now the Journal of Business Venturing hasn't actually been published. This is as they say hot off the presses. And the paper is called the Evolution of Founder Identity as an Authenticity Work Process. And we'll let her explain that directly. I want to welcome Isobel O'Neil. Isabelle is Associate Professor at Nottingham University. Welcome, Isabelle.

 

Isobel O'Neil  02:37

Thanks, Jeff. Nice to be here with you or you know, in the distance. Yes. So you're asking about the weather. Well, it's been snowing here, actually.

 

Isobel O'Neil  02:46

But it means literally, there's like half an inch on the ground and all excited. So yes, trying to sledge down a park on mud basically lives in this beautiful neighborhood. I bet that looks nice. A little bit snow on it. That's it does. It's been cold, very cold wind chill. But, you know, we're all indoor that way. So yeah, exactly. So are you guys in an actual like formal lockdown right now as well? Yes, this is lockdown number three, which is? It's really odd, isn't it? Because it's like a year pretty much now since it first kicked off with lots of ups and downs along the way. But yeah, this is a form of lockdown. Although the key difference for me is that my two kids can actually go to school this lockdown.

 

Isobel O'Neil  03:28

Which is just a good safe, you know, therefore and six as you perhaps remember. So awesome is about like I remember in my time in Nottingham, one of many things I love about the city is the beer, as you will know. But it was that place we went the route of Jerusalem is that what's called the trip to Jerusalem. It's like one of the oldest pubs in the world, isn't it? It's from 15 something is awesome. Yeah, it's very cool. But we want to talk a little bit about a more hip and modern brewery. Well, I think you'll have to tell me, they certainly brand themselves as such called brew dog, which has made its way to the US although apparently by the map, I was again not west of Indiana. So I made I made an effort I was gonna get some brewdog it's by the way we're recording this at 9am our time here in Colorado 4pm on a Friday for Isabel so she's she's much more relaxed, where Brad and I are like going like oh my god, all this stuff. I gotta wrap up before the end of the week. And I had ordered some I was like, oh, how am I get this brewdog it turns out that you can order their non alcoholic beer online and have it delivered to your house. But it didn't arrive in time. So I can remember what brew dog tastes like but tell us tell us a little bit about brew dog. I think that's an interesting story. Yeah, so breed dog. I think they were founded in 2007. So they were really, I guess, riding on the coattails of what was happening in the US. So from what I understand about the founders is you know, because it's funny when when

 

Isobel O'Neil  05:00

My case in the UK was that they were particularly into brewing home brewing. So they wanted to brew the beer that they wanted to drink. Because you know, the UK kind of has a lot of what we call real ale pulled from the cask.

 

Isobel O'Neil  05:17

for me, too, so yeah, and we have the whole campaign for real ale sales, organization, camera, you know, camera. But I, from what I understand about the brutal people, they wanted something like more crafty, they wanted something like the kind of us movement with IPAs and such like, so yeah, counterparties to I guess they're quite media savvy, as well, as particularly one of them. He's, there's two co founders. So there's a guy called James Watt. And another one called Martin Dickey, I believe, Scottish as well. So they kind of were at the forefront of that movement in the UK, I suppose. But the kind of controversial in the sense that they're kind of hipster and little bit pretentious, and very in your face. So I think there's a bit of a feeling and also they've grown so quickly. So they you know, they're not that microbrewery movement. They're a real big brand, that literally in every supermarkets, they have their own 30 bars. So they have brewdog bars. They're not made up pubs, they're definitely bars. Right. So yeah, I think there's a bit of a either love them or hate them kind of brand, regardless of whether you might like their beer, so I think they went a lot of like blind tastings. But then the effects in our days are the haters would kind of then recoil maybe like a brew dog beer. My experience with brewdog makes me a hater. Someone that's opening up a brewery and meeting the needs of their customers and been validated and all the things that we talked about, I'd say that's pretty awesome. I'm really curious, Jeff about brewdog and your beard judging hat. Oh, how would you think of this and how it compares to some of the beers that we would have here. I mean, it's really good, but I don't know, man, if I'm in the UK, I'm not gonna go drink brewdog because like it like I was saying, it's a really interesting story of like, you know, the craft brewing movement in the US started off oftentimes trying to emulate English Pale Ale and IPA specifically. But English IPA is not American IPA is these fuggles and goldings hops, which tend to be more complex and earthy. And Americans tend not to actually like that. And then Americans start to use cascade hops from Oregon and Washington. That's the typical grapefruity IPA flavor that we think of now, and you just go to an American brew pub and like, give me an IPA. That's what you're going to get. So they start off trying to emulate that. And now we've got British breweries, young people emulating the American style of brewery. I just find that fascinating. I mean, I remember growing up, you know, people make fun of American beer because I, you know, traveled as young person stuff and, and now Americans make virtually every style of beer available in the world. And then the interesting thing, I guess this is common American thing, they take it and they screw around with it, and innovate and sometimes for the better. In the case of many of American IPAs, I would argue sometimes for the worse, I had a beer called fruit camp recently. That's by a local brewery here. That was a mango banana sour. I think at some point, innovation reaches like a curve, perhaps we'd say where, where innovation for the sake of innovation may not be great, but anyway, it's excellent beer. My big experience was playing Dungeons and Dragons at their bar in Nottingham, they have a Dungeons and Dragons night. God, it's right up your street. Yeah, amazing. So um, yeah, it's interesting what you're saying. I'm actually the beer I'm having now because it is, you know, I'm allowed to post four o'clock in the

 

Jeff York  08:48

I'm having Earl Grey.

 

08:49

Oh, nice. Very British. So this one's called dead Pony Club. It's it's only 3.8 so it's a session IPA? Yeah. Which is actually my cup of tea. I find the us you know if I've gone maybe to bar probably with you at some point, Jeff and get hit by that. You don't realize that you're drinking 878 percent alcohol. Yeah, I'm talking to people in Boulder. Yeah, so I think I think they they describe this dead Pony Club as a kind of Californian inspired IPA. Citrus. lemongrass, yeah. tasted malt base, EPS, tropical fruit, that kind of thing. So do you actually like if you were just going to store normally Isabel Would you rather get that or like one of the local British IPAs if you know what I'm drinking at home? I would I would actually have

 

09:39

I think I know. But obviously a pint down the pub is a different matter that wants to be you know, something off the cask. So I would I would have a pulled pint down down at the pub. But

 

Jeff York  09:51

this is why Isabel and I are such good friends. We she has excellent taste and real beer.

 

09:56

Yeah, I mean, she's got some great local brew. is that the real ales so there's one called castle rock which kind of sits under not in castle although not in castle isn't quite the castle you might imagine but so yeah castle

 

10:11

castle

 

10:13

yeah

 

10:14

but i mean i was thinking about this today and i was reading about the brewdog and i think his journey started with drinking a sierra nevada

 

10:21

yep that's pretty typical

 

10:23

it's classic i think i used to have that when i first used to go to the states as well

 

Jeff York  10:27

they're also the most sustainable brewery recently were named that people often think of one of our local breweries new belgium brewing company is being the one leading the way in sustainability but if you actually look at operations i actually asked the head of sustainability for the american beverage association because i thought all she does is think about this stuff like who is the most established like sierra nevada like awesome because i love sierra nevada and i want to buy their beer i actually have a case of their their celebration ale they do an ipa every year with what they call fresh hops so just take the hop straight off the vine into it i should send you some it's excellent yeah it's got a little picture of a house so it's very very christmassy unfortunately like the interesting thing we didn't get our brew dog non alcoholic beer it's apparently got right here this afternoon just in time for me not to want to drink it but i probably will drive me i bet it'll taste good i was looking at their website this is pretty crazy and this is what we were talking about a little bit you know the paper today is about authenticity and here on grit crave distillation we're always trying to distill insights these papers as well as distill insights about beer you know we try to try to mix it up a little bit but beer with research not beer with anything else i hate when people make spirit things that's that's a real pet peeve of mine brad you love it when people mix scotch with things don't you that's totally your

 

Brad Werner  11:44

favorite you know what it's so funny that you brought that up because as i was sitting down this morning getting ready to talk with you folks i put it in your coffee and i said there's no way i'm putting macallan into my coffee so this morning this is the first for creative distillation i just haven't coffee yeah a special blend of coffee i have a friend who has they kind of roast their own beans in northern wisconsin and so every month they send me a couple pounds of brad's blend which is half sumatra and half an italian espresso and they put them together so they make this custom mix for me so the next time you're over at my house in the morning jeff i'll be happy to make you one of these

 

Jeff York  12:28

that's awesome man but so when are you getting your own barrel of breckenridge bourbon made because we discussed that at one point

 

Brad Werner  12:35

as soon as we can get the university to pay for it is that i say

 

Jeff York  12:40

hopefully no one from the universities listening to this don't worry about that entertainment fund that was just a business expense anyway okay so back to production so while it's interesting though i went look they have a they have apparently a brewing station in ohio now had no idea now here's the thing that really i thought was interesting when i look to try to get it they don't have in colorado yet but they would ship me some beer and i was like well they can't be shipping i mean there's all sorts of weird constraints the united states about shipping alcohol you could do it but it's a lot of hoops to jump through they have not one not two not three not four but seven non alcoholic beers you can order online and have shipped to your house i was just done by that and again i think that's just anathema i mean i know there's a lot of awareness of alcohol consumption in the uk and and i mean there is of course everywhere but they're you know it's such a tradition and part of going down to the pub and having a pint and i just thought having non alcoholic versions of their beer was so very different than traditional british brewing

 

Isobel O'Neil  13:44

yeah i mean i guess it's because they are that young young innovative brando that they'd be tapping into that idea and i think we were saying weren't we about how i've probably said something really silly but i thought it was about 25% of under under like 25 don't actually drink in the uk that tea titles amazing

 

14:05

yeah someone someone fact check that that's

 

Jeff York  14:07

no i have no idea but the fact that you even have that impression though

 

Isobel O'Neil  14:12

yeah that's a significant number

 

Jeff York  14:14

yeah it's just changing trends and tasting i was saying like yeah you can tell something's kind of definitely become the the hip thing in the beverage industry when you see it advertised during the superbowl and indeed budweiser that you know very innovative groundbreaking wonderful brewer of rice flavored water mixed with a seat allowed to hide that's that's what their beer is is advertising budweiser 00 percent alcohol budweiser during the superbowl which i'm sure you were fascinated by isabel

 

14:45

yeah i mean i know tom my other half had had some you know non alcoholic beer in january when he was you know for the first two weeks trying to try to go alcohol free and he's like well you know it doesn't taste that bad so

 

Jeff York  14:58

yeah it's just Interesting. And unfortunately,

 

Brad Werner  15:01

let me jump in for a second. Oh yeah, please. Let's say I have to. Um, so I'm thinking about this. When I imagine a brewery with seven non alcoholic beers. I'm thinking their target markets probably gonna sit down with a lamb produced pork chop, right. So I'm thrown into a test tube made some me it's like, What the hell's going on here? I understand a couple of non alcoholic beers. But what do you what are you guys doing? Right? Yeah, give me a good steak serving something that sounds like the markets. Oh, man. I'm thinking, you know, a bunch of PBA steaks and men that aren't beer to me. I'd rather go bad. I don't know. I just I think about this that I I personally, this is just my age speaking. I don't understand seven selections of na beer.

 

Jeff York  15:48

For the non alcoholic beers, grown meats, and liver cancer, not disease on my own. My way. Yeah, it's a whole new world. And I think that's where the question, Brad, you were saying, like, why would anybody not be a fan of this? I think the UK has a very strong tradition of real ale and, and I love taking Americans out for real ale because most of them are like, ah, flattered and warm. And I'm like, yeah, you don't know what you're talking about. This is good. And real ale generally is very low in alcohol. That's what I love about UK beers is like you can go get pine it's like gonna be like two and a half 3% you know, Porter a

 

16:21

little bit more

 

Jeff York  16:22

more like three. But you can get lighter ones but not as like, you know, like a mild is only like two and a half percent or so and, and it'll just still has tons of flavor. And I don't know I don't know as well because I people obviously I knew that we're talking about Buddha or people at the bar with me. So they all are like, obviously fans but but I imagine people would like traditionalist would view it as very negative way of taking away market share and, and endangering the tradition of real ale perhaps?

 

16:51

I would say say yeah, and and i think that's again, a lot of the controversy is kind of arguments with with that establishment. They say they don't get classified as real ales, because they bottle it so much, right. And they add co2, which is the classic, like, infringement of real So yeah, that's what that's what I understand is that it really clashes heads with that establishment. But, you know, they weren't the vanguard of this category of kind of mass market, if that makes sense. mass market craft beer, it.

 

Jeff York  17:24

That's what it's become. I only wish I'd gotten in on it. Who could? Like you know, I mean, I did, actually, but, but but professors. Brilliant. Those are big. homebrewers. Well, and Brad, I think they actually play into that whole dynamic you're talking about? I'm looking at these beers. One of them's called nanny state. Another one's called wake up call. It's their spresso alcohol free beer. So they're kind of you know, they're kind of playing to the people that would be like, yeah, this is garbage. But but sometimes people just you know, want an alcoholic free beverage and, and they

 

Brad Werner  17:58

don't know any of those people.

 

18:00

Classic one may produced in lockdown. So we have this saga with Boris Johnson's kind of key puppet master, if you like guy called Dominic Cummings. I don't know, you probably never would have heard of him. But he's like the Yeah, the behind the scenes guy. So in the first lockdown when everyone was supposed to be staying at home, not leaving their local area, he decided to drive up to where his parents lived in the north of England from London. It's about 200 miles. And then got caught out in bite members of the public in a place called Barnard castle, which is like a town Believe it or not. And so brewdog had a had a Barnard castle that year, you know, because of how controversial the whole story was. So they're always tapping into kind of the media story. Yeah.

 

Jeff York  18:48

I mean, they're clearly brilliant marketer. And the beer actually is really good. I mean, you can market a crappy beer all you like, or any crappy product, and you might get sore, but nowhere near the success these guys are having they're doing really well.

 

Brad Werner  19:01

I was just thinking about today's topic being authenticity, and how we we've seen a lot of authenticity amongst politicians these last year, or you're so right, saying one thing going to visit their parents. And by the way, is about that story actually made it to the US because I remember reading that and that was quite an outrage. It was unbelievable. We've had so many folks here.

 

19:22

It was a turning point. You know, I think they lost us after that. There was just no okay. Right? You break the rules. We'll do that to

 

Jeff York  19:30

the mayor of Denver crying out to see his family during Thanksgiving and the south and it's a recurring theme do do as we say not as we do. So yeah. Well, let's, let's move on. We got to get to creatively distilling some insights out of this paper is about so So tell us a little bit about the history of this paper that evolution of foundr identity as an authenticity work process. How did this come about?

 

19:55

Well, I'll just I'll just leave actually the brewdog with a quote that I pulled out from Oh,

 

20:00

So

 

20:00

just a segue in. So this is what the guy, James James what. So the only way to build a brand is to live that brand, you have to live the values and mission and then let the customer decide. And I found that really interesting quote, because it's kind of like, I don't know if he really has those values, but he is consistent to those values in you know, the actions that they do, the way they name their beers and all of that. So to me, that's a real story of how that founder, at least acts as if they've imprinted themselves in those values throughout that whole business of brewdog. So that was the kind of thing that we wanted to lead in to the next. Oh, that's awesome. That's really, yeah. So you've asked kind of what was the paper? What was kind of where did it come from? So I was doing a lot of work with environmental entrepreneurs, same as you, Jeff. And I'm kind of working with a group over a period of time as well. And I think I was always really interested in questions of, you know, how they managed the hybridity of those businesses, how they gain legitimacy, in spite of having perhaps different values to what an investor would have. And but then there's this really big stream in the work about kind of founder identity. And you and I both working on read that literature. So we kind of know a lot about, you know, a typology of founder identities, about the kind of role identities that exist. But we didn't really know very much about how these evolve over time, and how that idea, it's not just, you're not just aligning an existing sense of self with your work, which is what a lot of existing literature would say that like, you know, know yourself, and you might change your career or become an entrepreneur to enact that identity that you already know exists. But we were really, you know, like, you've said that there's a bit of a kickback in kind of people who are socially or environmentally minded is that it jars with them, the idea of entrepreneurship, of, you know, the capitalist approach that's really associated with entrepreneurship really jarred with a lot of these people. So we found it really interesting that people were acting entrepreneurially, and starting up ventures without having a self definition as being an entrepreneur. So it was a really kind of, I got a neighbor paradox, in a way not not quite engaged in entrepreneurship, but I don't think I'm an entrepreneur. Yeah. So how did that happen? How did that work? And the question was to kind of look at people over time to see whether, because we know from people like Michael Pratt work in other professions, that it's the, who you are, and you're being evolved through the doing of the work. So would that happen, as these individuals who didn't see themselves as entrepreneurs, but they would doing entrepreneurship? How would that change them potentially over time? Or what would be the the anchors during that process of, you know, in the uncertain, confused state of setting up a new business, like what would be happening to these people? Yeah, that was really the starting point and what we wanted to look at, so let me just take a so you're,

 

Jeff York  23:14

you're following these people around, like I said, You're, in my mind, one of the few people I knew and research that actually spends a lot of time in the field. So you would just interview these people periodically go to meetings with them?

 

23:29

That kind of thing? Yeah. So it was over about two and a half, three years. People almost like feeling like you're stalking them a little bit. I'm here again, to come to chat to you. And that was, that was so nice, because, you know, then they get to know you interest you. And it wasn't like I was there every every month, of course.

 

Jeff York  23:50

You'd have to live your life as well.

 

23:52

But it was it was just periodically dropping into people. I really, I've been doing that this year, actually, I've been doing a project with low income women dropping in, like every quarter basically see how they're getting on with their business ideas, basically, not at all at the moment because of the pandemic. But so yeah, I love that I love that longitudinal study, whereas you really get a process as it's evolving, and you really get that reflections and changes that are happening. Right. So So yeah, through that study, we were kind of able to find out some really interesting things. And the one that was, I mean, it wasn't surprising, because they talked about it a lot was about the sense of becoming an entrepreneur to be authentic to their values, because it was the most free way to perform work. So they didn't have to, you know, answer to anyone else or deliver work that was kind of in conflict with our values. So that was the dream, I guess. And that was the quest for why they, you know, because a lot of them left previous work. So they'd worked in corporates, or they'd worked in the public sector. And they were leaving that with this view to like, you know, I can't take any More I can't, I can't be doing, you know, someone was an electronics engineer, I can't be making this kind of electronic waste anymore. I've got to be doing my calling in a way my, my kind of, you know, purpose is more than this,

 

Jeff York  25:13

right? So it wasn't like, when we teach entrepreneurship, we often focus a lot on the opportunity or the idea, right? Like, the classic is, you know, pain pills versus vitamins. Like we'd rather be making pain pills, like, we're gonna be solving someone's direct problem, usually, we want to find those opportunities. But these people were not necessarily driven by that as much as their sense of disassociation with what they were currently doing from a values perspective is that,

 

25:44

I mean, bear in hand, because they had, they had an opportunity space as well, like they were, you know, the removal of packaging, from grocery goods. You know, there was a, there was a market opportunity, she, she caught on to the fact that people wanted to buy unpackaged goods, zero waste, but it was also that she had not found another way to do that, like it had to then become a kind of entrepreneurial activity for her. So yeah, you can't deny they didn't find an opportunity. But whether they, they probably would have done anything at that point to leave the work. They were in, it seemed like, yeah, yeah. So I'm trying to think back as well, cuz I'm a bit like EGF, once you've done. Once you've done the research and someone's accepted it, you're kind of like, think about this anymore.

 

Jeff York  26:30

I want to know, yeah, that's, I mean, that's why we started this creative distillation podcast was like, because we were like, it came from me and Brad talking me trying to explain to him some research I'd done or I had read about and said, Well, why is that useful? And so we're trying to take the work that's already done, and then go back and reflect a little bit on like, and so what do you what do you think? I mean, was this a good thing for these people? Is it a bad thing for these people? Could we say something as simple as that about it? I mean,

 

26:56

yeah, I mean, I think they were, they were kind of satisfied. And I think one thing that I, I like to think about these days is that kind of sense of eudaimonia. So you demonic well being. So that's not the kind of hedonic sense of, you know, I'm having happy moments in my life and drinking a beer and laughing with friends. But it's kind of the I Am eudaimonia is about human flourishing, isn't it? It's kind of Greek word. And it's about fulfilling your purpose in life. So it's not going to be peaks and troughs of happiness. But it's going to be that real sense of, I guess it's a sense of achievement, isn't it? Or fulfillment, that you've reached your full potential?

 

Jeff York  27:37

Yeah. And you've talked a lot about this. Yeah. The Evolution itself towards the higher purpose and things like that.

 

Brad Werner  27:46

This is very, very interesting. Can you guys once again, though, tell me the title. Because when I started writing down that long title, my pen ran out of ink.

 

Jeff York  27:56

To make fun of our titles,

 

27:58

we did an awful job with that time, we were more creative than that. We didn't we didn't nail the title.

 

Jeff York  28:05

I've got it here. The evolution of founder identity is an authenticity work process. I got a baritone. It should have been authenticity at work.

 

28:15

Well,

 

Jeff York  28:15

there you go. No, no, that's horrible. I

 

28:22

found her in

 

Jeff York  28:26

the paper talks about that, right? I mean, that it's a very it is the title is exactly saying what the paper is about.

 

Brad Werner  28:33

He cracks me up hobbies, titles, it's, it's not that approachable, the title I think, to be kind. But I do think that it's that it's interesting, I think your topic is interesting. Um, so just, Isabel, let me just make a couple comments and tell me if I'm kind of on the right track. So I think that this is all about kind of the founder of the self of the founder, and their authenticity, using a values based framework to make decisions, certainly very, very aware of their self identity and the evolution of how that's going. And their self image is extremely important to them. And they want to be doing, doing things adding value, whatever value means in their, in their mind, right. That's really cool. You know, because actually, the reason that I came to the University is my biggest fear for young entrepreneurs, is they have a great idea. But they take a job right out of college and their situation change. Maybe they have a family or partner. And anyway, because of financial responsibilities as they evolve into this 10 years later, they're stuck in a cubicle, they can't get up. And to me, that's terrifying. And I think that what you're talking about some of these folks is kind of the same message. So I think it's really, really cool.

 

29:39

It's an empowering thing. To do that, like it's a sense of empowerment and taking charge of your life rather than, you know, letting it floats. So yeah,

 

Brad Werner  29:51

I just I just wanted to kind of still continue to frame this for a second, because I think it ties into questions. I hit up with entrepreneurs all the time. is kind of how do you deal with work life balance and what i answer is it's just life right there is no such thing as work life balance how do you want your life to look like and how does everything fit in and i think that these people are really taking control the people that you're highlighting here taking control of what what that directly looks like for them

 

30:16

yeah it's absolutely true and i do a lot of work now which we'll talk about in a minute with with women who make the transition into entrepreneurship and i think a lot of them go back and i've got like a co founder and she would always say you know she actually she's a cancer survivor and she had a really horrendous time in her life and was a single mom and had cancer and she really took that recovery time to kind of reflect on what she wanted in her life so she assesses our core values and if something doesn't fit with that she just won't do it it's really that black and white for her so if she's not having fun because she's had such a horrendous time in life she has to have enjoyment in what she's doing at work so if she's not working with a client or working on a project she won't enjoy she will she will actually pull back and stop that so that is the powerful thing isn't it it's a really hard one and most people i know who is an exception isn't it in a way that a lot of people as an entrepreneur will feel they have to take on whatever work comes our way whatever contracts comes even if it means you know working 80 hour weeks to get it done but it is quite refreshing when people are like actually that doesn't fit with my values i don't want to do that work and i've learned to say no about it yeah but she's she knows she's not going to be a millionaire that's that's a compromise isn't it

 

Brad Werner  31:33

well maybe we don't know that right it's too early to call right we can't be rough there you have no idea based on that sort of framework what she may come up with to so i wouldn't write her off just yet

 

31:44

no no no because she's absolutely successful because she's right made those parameters

 

31:51

right i agree with that 100%

 

Jeff York  31:53

those are something i take from the paper if i like had something that wanted to tell my students like particularly so i teach my classes have people from a more environmental activism background or have worked in government and then they come and take a business class with me and you know first of all they're horrified when i tell them they have to compete with the other students they don't like that at all but then again new business students but that's reality but what i would take from the paper i know i think this is a fascinating story there's so many of these people start off not wanting to be entrepreneurs like really being uncomfortable with that label but then it's because you do this awesome work and follow them over like three years you see them become comfortable with that label over time and i just wonder if we couldn't save people who care deeply about social or environmental issues and are looking at business as a solution a lot of anks for the way we educate them about what is entrepreneurship really mean it doesn't mean being mark zuckerberg or whatever negative i mean not really feel one way or the other about mark zuckerberg really but but you know like i do i'm sure you do but i definitely have feelings about facebook

 

Brad Werner  33:12

oh god

 

Jeff York  33:12

yeah anyway so but you know i mean it's like this this this depiction i think this is very common in europe as well at least in my experience of entrepreneurs here in the united states as well like you know of entrepreneurs being people taking advantage of others or greedy capitalists i mean shark tank and things like that don't help

 

33:31

yeah yeah totally agree and i think it is like entrepreneurship is probably like a career that you do as opposed to like a wholesale stereotyped identity that you put on or take off i guess it's probably an activity or a response to a set of circumstances isn't it as opposed to like i am an entrepreneur but yeah you're right with these people that i think it was a lot about kind of external verification as well like the more they were immersed in doing it and are getting recognized as being entrepreneurial and then they realized that actually so what it's a label but it's it's what matters to me in that sense and it's kind of like it's enabled me to make the difference i want to make exactly emancipating and all those things rather than it being i think that nothing gets off i think it's probably media representation a lot isn't it with the with the entrepreneurs i think we need to do more work to get more different types of entrepreneurs represented

 

Jeff York  34:32

i think you're absolutely right on that and particularly we find very disturbing and i tried to correct it in my class to providing examples but yes people to reel off entrepreneurs and they're gonna reel off a bunch of white males i mean that's just who they're gonna name like i mean because those are the people they know about and i think that's really sad because well first of all like that's just sad from an equity and inclusion perspective and portrayal of the of the path. But second, those people are not role models. They're Bizarro outliers. And if you try to go be like, I'm going to be like Steve Jobs. Oh, my God, like, you just that's not going to work like,

 

35:17

no at all.

 

Jeff York  35:18

Like, and it's really it's, I think it's an unfortunate, or you're gonna try to act like Elan musk. I mean, like, yeah, good luck with that. I think it's really unfortunate. And you know, here on crude distillation, we're trying to like distill these insights down, but you're actually doing this, which is, I think, a first for one of our guests. I think, Brad, Oh, absolutely. Want to hear about this. You actually are a founder of a venture that come I don't want your research. Is that correct?

 

35:46

It's just the bizarre twist in life. It's it was unexpected. I think I wonder whether it's like kind of contagious though. From here. I've been hanging around with. But yeah, I mean, certainly, it's over here in the UK. So, you know, I've been doing all this research. And then, you know, have I go off, I have a couple of kids, couple of girls, which probably makes me want to fight the fight a little bit more for them in the future. So yeah, hanging out with kind of quite a few women who are entrepreneurs and having all these conversations about how inappropriate role models are, and how the rules of the game have kind of feel stacked against underrepresented groups. So whether that's I think, minorities or women, you know, and only only one in three entrepreneurs in the UK is a woman. So there, there is a gender gap in terms of who, you know, and I think only 1% of VC funding goes to women. Yeah, it's it's just yeah, and I'm not saying all women want to go for VC funding, but it's another measure of how underrepresented women are. And it's all these things about, you know, some doing some conversations with women, as a research project with a colleague. And you know, they're thinking, you know, so all the Jeff will know, this, all the kind of Zoltan who hugely symbolic actions entrepreneurs are supposed to do to gain credibility, right? They look very different from how a woman would get established, you know, and again, like probably because zeiten hueys are like Cambridge graduates who go on to get investment. So it's kind of all this knowledge that we we have, and we imagined that entrepreneurs have to do to gain credibility and legitimacy and resources. Actually, women entrepreneurs really recoil against that. Right? So. So we had this kind of idea that we needed to produce something to kind of help, you know, there was like a period of two years that women are starting their businesses, but really feeling they're not fitting in, no one's getting what they're doing. And that process isn't working, right. So you're like, well, if we can help create a shortcut for that two years of time, where, yeah, women are in flux, like, what can we do? So we have the kind of fund in the UK, which is called impact accelerators. So that's, like, translate research into something useful. Yeah. So I applied for that got some funding. And I worked with one like three direct collaborators. And then we brought on a whole team of other women, and we ran workshops, and we kind of worked through process and ended up with a toolkit to help women entrepreneurs. And then we kind of realized, well, the toolkit on its own isn't necessarily enough. It's about networks and communities and conversations and developing confidence together. So then we thought, well, we can run workshops around this. So we have a bit more of a package. And we got some funding from a charity to do some pilots. And then they were like, well, we'll refund you again, unless you become a social enterprise. So we're like, okay, let's find a social enterprise then. So we did as of October. So we're now called the myway. Project CIC. So I don't know if you know, but in the UK, we have the community interest company. Right. Now it's written into into our Constitution, that we're sexual purpose organization. Awesome.

 

39:02

Yeah. Yeah, the

 

Jeff York  39:03

UK is like barely ahead of the United States. As far as that we're just we're trying to catch up a little bit, but all right. I'm inspired. Brad, here you go. We have a professor.

 

39:16

Yeah, so I love that. You're setting

 

Jeff York  39:19

too high of a bar for the rest of our guests as you're here as well,

 

39:22

that it's, you know, it's small fry. It's it's spend a few hours a week on it. You know, we write funding beds.

 

39:29

And that's,

 

Jeff York  39:31

but you're directly impacting and helping people.

 

39:35

I know. Yeah,

 

Brad Werner  39:36

feels good. That's great. That's great. I mean, I feel good.

 

Jeff York 39:42

It is it is so meaningful. And the other thing that's interesting is we've just so we had this kind of dream business model, which would be called the Robin Hood. business models so great from nothing. Yeah.

 

40:01

But yeah, so the Robin Hood business model is it's kind of obvious, but it would be like getting larger corporations to pay for us to do workshops for, you know, building professional legitimacy with women and organizations and helping them do some career reflections, that kind of thing. And that funds, lower income women who want to start their own business. And we have just sold our first workshop to boots. So I don't know if you know,

 

40:26

the chemist. They're like, a huge company,

 

40:29

born and bred. But I'm actually Walgreens boots Alliance now. So they won't leave us, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. It's not a huge amount. But it's validating us that we can get paid for our services and corporations as well.

 

Brad Werner  40:47

And here's another item that you'll like about Walgreens is yesterday, they hired their first woman CEO. So she is the first woman CEO and a fortune 500 company in the United States. So that is, that's really good. So very, very timely. So why do you measure success with the organization is about how does success look for you,

 

41:05

I think it's a us it would be having enough sales so that we can fully fund just two programs a year, because we were three co founders, and the other two women have their own businesses as well. And I have my academic job. So we're not, you know, we're not going to grow, we're not going to take over the UK with this, but we want to be able to help, you know, we have a kind of local focus as well, we want to help women in Nottingham, that's the way we founded it. So yeah, we want to run two programs a year for 20. Women. So and get them to a point where, you know, we've got kind of like a before and after survey that we do with them, just to kind of measure where they are. And that project I was saying about earlier about following the women throughout the year, I've turned that into a research project to so now it's back. So I'm following these these lower income women through their first year of an entrepreneurial journey, and to turn into research paper as well.

 

Brad Werner  42:02

So let me ask you is about my question to you is do you feel that you're an entrepreneur? Right? We were talking about these other people? How did you fall in there? Yeah, no,

 

42:11

I think I'm doing something entrepreneurial. And that feels nice, actually, to practice something, and to make the difference. But I would not say I'm an entrepreneur, no. entrepreneurial like, yeah, I'm going, Oh, well. Yeah,

 

Brad Werner  42:27

I really do. I think that the action, right, you've taken research and all of your understanding about how ecosystem works, and all that, and you and you've acted upon that. And I think that right there, by definition, makes you an entrepreneur. And I think that that's really cool. And I think maybe some of the things you've been writing about. I don't know if you want to this, but I think that a lot of those things, you're talking about values based framework, right? self image, and all those things. And you've said how you were kind of going to be even stronger advocate because of two girls, I think you fit right into the kind of the people you were just talking about.

 

42:56

Yeah, I need to celebrate those things a little bit more probably. I'm not great at. Yeah. But I'm having fun with it. It's and it's rewarding. I think Jeff will attest to this, it's, it's a slow burn with academic work, it takes a long time to get results. Whereas if you can write a funding bid, within two months, get the funding and run a program. Like we're just finishing up a program now. And then women will be, you know, moving on and doing that next step. So it feels much more.

 

Jeff York  43:26

Yeah, no, I absolutely agree. I think a lot of times you have to. Yeah, I counsel a lot of PhD students and people they're interested in doing so have more impactful entrepreneurship research. And I think oftentimes you have to figure out how are you going to how are you going to balance the doing of the research that takes so much time and often is often is pretty lonely, and frequently result results in rejection, with actually doing something you feel like you're having an impact, and for a lot of people that's teaching but you've gone, you know, I mean, you obviously teach as well, you've gone beyond that to try to help the people you actually care about. And I know, I know, you're very modest person, but I think this is fantastic. I really, I think you are an excellent role model for young PhD students and for young, young women who are interested in a career in entrepreneurship. So not trying to embarrass you, but I truly believe that and I wanted to say, No, no, no, Okay, go ahead.

 

Brad Werner  44:26

Let me go part of that your your role model, period, whether you'd like like to be your net, what you're doing is really, really freaking awesome work and touching one life at a time and people think of these numbers, but if you go and actually talk to that person, make that one change. That's really incredible. And you're doing that again, and again. And again. I think it's great. And the framework about this and this, this relates to all entrepreneurs hitting the ground is being authentic. Without that authenticity, you're going nowhere. You have to be who you are. And I also think combined with that values framework is a way to at least filter decisions if you have many decisions. at least gets maybe down to two words you know right it helps you get there yeah and i think customers know that and i think that people can just tell they can intrinsically tell if someone's authentic yep they're true to their word or not and that goes so far and everything else and like i said it's one of those foundational aspects that without it for the most part like right though there's exceptions you're not going to do well

 

Isobel O'Neil  45:22

yeah i mean i think i think that certainly helped us with boots we got in there through connections with the university and through delivering and then you know that they're coming back to us now so i think because they know us they trust us and they know that we the good we do with the income that they could provide as well so it's a nice circle and the other thing that's really lovely about what we've just done is so we did our first trial in the end of 2019 and one of the women on that course has now come back as a mentor to the cohort we're just running and it was so lovely to see how far she'd come and the story she could tell so we want that built in as well as a cycle

 

Jeff York  46:01

that's super cool and for what for what it's worth also i i taught this paper this week in class so i don't make students read papers i've learned better than that i haven't read the abstract and then have them read the introduction you know because we always talk about the conclusions and the production and our students are i think oftentimes we underestimate i think law professor i don't want give these academic papers to my students like yeah don't make them read a 40 page paper because they were sound anyway i'll even make brad read these papers and you know no way i was gonna do something cruel to someone it would be bread but um but but then asking them questions about what they read and it was pretty cool to see what they took out of this paper as well they were like well i got from it is that it's okay to be an entrepreneur a couple of people said that who are uncomfortable with that and some people do said entrepreneurship is a path to actually achieving my values

 

46:58

yeah

 

Jeff York  46:59

i thought that was huge and then one person we'd been teaching effectuation before that this methodology of entrepreneurship they're like i see it as like when we talked about effectuation effectuation just real quickly is all about starting with your means but the first means is who i am and they took this directly this discussion you had had a values and put it into that so i'm now thinking about who i am as not just what i know like i'm an engineer but also what i my values what i care about as a source for entrepreneurial action so yeah i mean that's

 

Jeff York  47:33

more we could distill down to tell someone listening today like those are important things i thought my part of the toolkit that's what we do like we get people to audit who they are is that point to where they're gonna go next so

 

Jeff York  47:46

it's the critical that not only are you doing things that you feel good about and you're fulfilling your purpose and things like that but you're going to be people are going to pick up on that and you're gonna be able to put more energy into it and they're going to people other stakeholders you pick up on that or not i'll try trying to watch

 

48:03

just then i'll just end with another conversation we had this week in the class was we were trying to get people to work out what they were going to do next and some of them still were like well i just don't know so we were like well can you just come up with one sentence i just want to and then build out all the options so so debbie was like i just want to talk to people because she does lots of coaching so that was her thing someone else was like i just want to bake so where can you bake who can you bake with who can you sell that to and mine was like i just want to find things out and i can find things out in academia i can find things out from you know helping people and coaching them in their lives i can do all these things so that was a cool thing that we we ended up with last week i just want to very cool

 

Jeff York  48:49

Isabelle it has been wonderful to catch up with you really excited to learn more about what you're doing thanks so much for joining us on creative distillation i really appreciate that

 

Isobel O' Neil 48:59

Jeff thanks thank you as well

 

Jeff York  49:00

thanks sorry sorry the brewdog af didn't arrive but we'll discuss that next time a crab distillation that was our guest isabella neill associate professor of entrepreneurship at nottingham university in the united kingdom she was joining us today to talk about her paper the evolution of founder identity as an authenticity work process and also her work as a social entrepreneur herself thanks so much for tuning in if you enjoyed our discussion today make sure you hit the subscribe button you can get access script distillation wherever find our podcasts are offered sold on ebay sales podcast but anyway they're they're out there so you get free and make sure you listen and once again i'm jeff york research director with the deming surprise membership joined by my co host brad warner also from the deming center for entrepreneurship at the leeds school of business at the university of colorado we'd love your feedback we'd love your subscribe and thank you so much for listening we'll see you next time