deming

Creative Distillation Episode 71 - Reversing the Arrow conference with Dev & Jennifer Jennings

Emily Iliff — Thu, 14 Nov 2024 20:22:53 +0000

Creative Distillation Episode 71 - Reversing the Arrow conference with Dev & Jennifer Jennings Emily Iliff Thu, 11/14/2024 - 13:22

Emily Iliff

Get ready for another fascinating episode of the Creative Distillation Podcast! In this episode, hosts Jeff York and Brad Werner welcome two guests: Jennifer and Dev Jennings, professors at the University of Alberta's School of Business. The conversation takes place on the front porch the Chautauqua Mission House, setting the scene for a deep dive into sustainability, science, and commercialization. And of course, they kick things off by sharing their thoughts on the beverages they’re enjoying: this time, New Terrain Brewing’s Pillow Drops Colorado Pilsner.

Jeff and Brad waste no time diving into the heart of the discussion: Dev Jennings’ fascinating research on the challenges of bringing science-based products and processes to market. From the Alberta tar sands industry to sustainability-focused innovations, Dev offers a unique perspective on the intersection of science, business, and environmental responsibility.

Listeners will hear about Dev’s journey, from his early days in Palo Alto to his time at Stanford’s business school and his work with the Forest Service. He delves into his research on extracting bitumen from tar sands, exploring the environmental implications and the complex process of commercializing innovations. The conversation also sheds light on the difficulties of transferring technology from scientists to corporations and the lack of incentives for collaboration, a critical barrier to progress in the field.

One of the most intriguing parts of the episode focuses on co-design and lifecycle analysis, two tools that Dev and his team use to develop and test products. By involving multiple teams and conducting town hall-style consultations, they were able to co-design solutions that significantly reduced water consumption and pollution. The discussion offers valuable lessons on how collaboration and long-term planning can lead to more impactful innovations.

The episode also touches on an exciting and timely experiment: pitching products to government panels and venture capitalists. Dev explains how his team studied the role of gender and AI in the pitching process. These findings underline the importance of transparency and careful consideration when incorporating AI into research and commercialization.

As the episode wraps up, Dev reflects on the long and often challenging journey of bringing science-based products to market. He emphasizes the importance of collaboration, balancing short- and long-term goals, and keeping scientists engaged with the right incentives.

This episode of Creative Distillation is a must-listen for anyone curious about the intersection of science, business, and sustainability. Whether you’re an entrepreneur, a researcher, or simply a curious mind, this conversation offers fresh insights and inspiring ideas. Tune in now- grab your favorite beverage and join the journey where big ideas brew!

Transcript

Jeff, welcome to another episode of creative distillation. Your hosts, Jeff and Brad from the University of Colorado, Boulder's Leeds School of Business, discuss entrepreneurship research while enjoying fine craft beverages. For this episode, we continue with our guests from the previous episode, Jennifer and Dev Jennings. They're both professors in the department of strategy, entrepreneurship and Management at the University of Alberta's School of Business. They're also the first married couple to appear on creative distillation, as well as the first to enjoy wine. On the podcast, Dev discusses his latest research currently in progress that examines how science based products and processes get passed along to corporations or to startup entrepreneurs, from corporations to be developed for real world application. His paper in progress looks at this through the lens of the Alberta tar sands industry devs findings thus far, which involve not just corporate scientific community interactions, but also observations about gender roles and AI are fascinating, as is the fact that an effort to commercialize a product is at the center of devs project. This action research is another creative distillation. First enjoy and cheers. Welcome to Jeff York 1:41 Creative distillation, where we distill entrepreneurship research into actionable insights. I am your host, Jeff York, Faculty Director at the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the Leeds School of Business, joined by Brad Werner and Jeff, it Brad 1:52 is great to be with you today. Jeff York 1:54 It is great to be here with you, Brad. We're still on the lovely front porch of the what is it? Where are we? Joe Mission House. Thank you, Joel. Joel is our official memory of the cast. He's actually not drinking anything right now, and we just wrapped up an awesome discussion with Jennifer Jennings, professor at University of Alberta School of Business. And we're now going to talk to her husband, Dev Jennings, about one of his projects, also, professor at the University, Alberta School of Business, and both of them are here for the reversing the arrow conference. And if you want to know what the heck that is, you got to rewind two episodes and find one that says. Robert Eberhart, you're all about it, how it came to be and why it's such a fascinating thing. Dev and Jen, welcome again. Thanks. Time for us to select the new beverage we enjoyed. Oh yeah. Now, Deb, you said you were a beer guy, so, yeah, easier for me, yeah. So what we got, these are all from, probably from Boulder, or at least with that 15 minute dry bulb, we've got new terrain brewing. Pillow drops, Colorado Pilsner. Dev Jennings 2:55 Okay, it's a pilsner. Now, all right, let's Jeff York 2:56 try the pillow drops, okay, we all get a taste of that. And whippery, Jeff, this is new terrain. Okay, where are they? I can't remember where they are, Colorado. Yes, they're in Colorado. Dev Jennings 3:07 It's in a lavendery Purple, yes. So I guess that's the whole Oh, it is featuring a skier. Jeff York 3:13 There's that. Jennifer Jennings 3:14 There you go, Jeff York 3:16 Jen, You stick with the Prosecco. Are you? Oh, we might be out of Prosecco. I don't know. So the new terrain. Yeah, you're welcome. All right. Cheers, everybody. Hey, cheers. I forgot producer, Joe Oh no, yeah, Joel, we just gave him the whole bottle of deviate. You don't know what that is. You got rewind to the last episode, sure. So what do you guys think pillow drops? Dev Jennings 3:39 Yeah. Brad 3:40 Dov, you liking us, Dev Jennings 3:41 yeah, but I don't think I'd be using it just before hitting my pillow. I'd probably have a few of these. Yeah, Brad 3:46 oh yeah, it's Dev Jennings 3:47 pretty nice. Jeff York 3:48 It says pillows of paradise. Okay, now we're talking much like the voluminous foamy cup on a freshly poured Pilsner pillow. Drops are the highly technical ski lines that take you flying through boulder fields capped with mounds of fresh, fluffy powder. This pills has a dry biscuitty malt backbone, delicate floral aromas balanced by some bitterness and a crisp fit. They Dev Jennings 4:09 actually think you should take those pillows. Jeff York 4:18 Hops, traditional Pilsner hop, one of our favorite German pills, as a lot of those hops in it, I could drink this all day. Jeff, yeah, we're gonna have to seek this out. Sorry, new terrain. We're gonna, we're gonna look up where you guys are, find you and come to your name too, right? Yeah, this is delicious. Goes Jennifer Jennings 4:33 with the whole skiing vibe. Yes, yeah. We're Jeff York 4:35 here on the ski line. Dev Jennings 4:36 When I least live in Palo Alto, we would go and go to this little German brewery place and drink a version of like a stop and type beer. Okay, wait, Brad 4:45 so Palo Alto, tell us about your experience there. Oh, I Dev Jennings 4:48 went to grad school, got a master's in a PhD in the Bay Area, right? Yeah, yeah. So I was just living with a bunch of engineers. And how'd you like they were, that's as Brad 4:58 a as a scholar. So that type of background actually could be really Dev Jennings 5:02 cool. It was great. It was a wonderful era, the late, you know, the 80s was wonderful, very interdisciplinary. You could go across departments and hang and do I think my, my extra love of working with science really was from then, right? And that, you know, one of the reasons I chose the paper today is because I've always had a big interest in sustainability. I used to work for the Forest Service many years back, and just before I went to grad school, I was working for the Forest Service. And my first couple summers during grad school, I worked for the Forest Service, and yeah, and so I was in Palo Alto, and there were engineers Forest Service. I was working in the biz school. I was working in sociology. The Stanford biz school paid for my education, right? Yeah, so it was a wonderful place, wonderful place, and still is a wonderful place. I don't even think I can get in anymore, but I was lucky to be in that and I probably couldn't get in. Now, that's Jeff York 5:57 true every school I went to. I was lucky. I went there. I did wouldn't work out today, yeah, so I just remembered, actually, new terrain. I've actually been there, really, it's in golden and it's at the base of a mountain biking trail. So if you're ever in Golden Colorado, there's some really good mountain biking trails right by where this brewery is up. And you it's a massive, hellish climb, like every, every mountain bike ride in Colorado starts like this. It's gonna be a massive, hellish climb, and that's the star of the ride. But then you end up back at the brewery, and it's an awesome, awesome Brad 6:31 I think we need to do a podcast there. Just, yeah, we Jeff York 6:33 definitely need to get down there. It's beautiful. It's right in the shade of a mountain there. So I feel bad I wasn't properly selling new terrain. Great place. Yeah, the beer is great. So, so Dev, we're gonna talk about paper with a sustainability bent to it. Today. We Dev Jennings 6:45 are, we are sustainability and entrepreneurship. So, you know, Jennifer and I, as she mentioned, and in the prior podcast, we do a lot of work together. We're still doing work, including a work on women's entrepreneurs with Jessica Santana, right, right? Yeah, that looks at sort of their discourse in failure. So that's kind of over there. But I've always been super serious about how science based products and processes get passed over to corporations or to startup entrepreneurs, from corporations to be developed for the street or, you know, for use for us, especially for sustainability, right? So in Alberta, we have the oil sands, yeah, and the oil sands is a massive operation, and it has all the majors there, right, working hard on what's called the oil sand, which is bitumen. It's really heavy oil that you know you have to process. It's like, full of sand, and so you have to put it through thing called sag D, essentially, really high heat, with lots of water and chem processing to separate it, right? And then you can distill it off, but then you've got a lot of toxins. And, you know, you can imagine. So there's been Brad 7:49 a big political discussion in the United States transferring the oil sands, or the oil from the oil sands, down through the US to Houston, right, Dev Jennings 7:56 right? And so there's been a lot of backlash, but then there's been a lot of tech development on trying to improve it, right? And so I've been working at when I was at my former job, I used to work on water management. I was between solder and water management and Institute of resource environment as an associate. And then I at Alberta, I became involved in doing future energy systems. And my part in future energy systems was really around water, because I knew about that. And so water and wetland, especially remediation, after you've got these heavy toxins, you know, that have been used in processing. Well, what? What do you do? And we so we have a lot of science guys on campus and in Alberta and around the world, and also down in Texas especially, and some in Colorado, frankly. Who are, you know, piled in with lots of processes, lots of products to try to do cleanup. But it's a very interesting thing. You know, when you're in the biz school, you tend to, oh, you're a startup entrepreneur, you know, you'll go grab a product process, you might do an app. But when you're over, over in the science or engineering departments, as you know, Jeff, you know, you've kind of got this lineage of science or development of that product or that process, and you have to really leverage off that right? And then you go, Okay, well, we're going to do oil sands, but we got to do this chemistry, that chemistry, that chemistry, that product, that product, and each of these products is based off that science. Then it gets developed, and then it gets chucked over the fence magically to a corporation or to an entrepreneur, and then you just hope, you know, when you chuck it over the fans to shell, or you chuck it over to Exxon Mobil, or you chuck it over to sin crude, they pick it up, yeah, Brad 9:29 through tech transfer, yeah, yeah, but also literally Dev Jennings 9:33 through patent license, right? Tech trend, yeah, all versions, but not Brad 9:36 a lab. It gets there's some sort of IP and now it's on the shelf, yeah, but Dev Jennings 9:41 it's, you sit in the same room. No, it comes out of lab, but you sat in the same room with the development process, with these guys. I mean, you know, you're from Exxon, and you're looking at it, and they're there, and they're literally, you're, you're at the end process, and they're in the same room, some of the same guys, and there's now, like, Okay, now you take it and. Literally chucking. It's literally a handoff. And the thing is, I'm not gonna, I don't I want to be a scientist. I want to develop the next one, Brad 10:09 right? Actually, to continue the development of that technology, to commercialize, Dev Jennings 10:14 you do and you don't. You need the grad students who were on that particular product to maybe consult or be licensed, but then you'll hand it over to somebody else who has been trained in chemistry or trained in this to take care of that. Often they're on the corporate side, not on that side, right? And so there's this handoff, chuck it over. And you hope the handoff is smooth, like in a relay race, but it's chucked over the fence or, you know, they receive it. Well, yeah. And so there's, there's quite a there's a big way, back when I was a grad student, there used to be this thing was developed called the Integrated circuits lab on campus, which was trying to, you know, bridge between business community like the biz school, and I was between social and business. And so I was design and that, and tried to make an integrated statement. And it failed, right? Right? Because there weren't incentives. It almost does, right? So the question then is, how do you actually put incentives in there to keep the science guys engaged, to work with the corporation, and at the same time make sure that when you get down the road, the community isn't the one that's like holding the bag interesting, right? I mean, that's really the question. How do you do it? So you get all three players so that you can improve that the handoff process? Yeah, right. And it's not a simple one, and there are lots of answers that people work on. But I thought, well, you know, this is something that seems super important to me, then people want to know Jeff York 11:34 the answer. Was a critical question. So important everyone. Essentially, you actually seem like all the technologies so, so not even technologies where there might be negative externalities the community and things like that, but things that like, where there's a positive externality that we desperately need to be commercialized as quickly as possible. So I'm thinking a lot about like down the road, near new terrain, actually, in Golden Colorado, is the national Noble Energy Lab, right? And I had a thing where I would work with them to have people bring technologies to my class in renewable energy and just introduce the technology, and then the students would try to figure out how to commercialize it over a period of semester Exactly. And of course, nobody ever did at all. But, gosh, I'm not trying to throw them under the fence. They do a lot of things besides this. I mean, they do amazing job of a lot of commercialization efforts, and then the lab is very complex. There's a lot, but I was kind of thinking to myself, like, wow. Like they would even spend time on this, like, having these students, like, just kind of screw around, shows how hard this process is, where they're willing just to try a lot of different things. Yeah, Dev Jennings 12:35 and this is the National Laboratory. That's a national laboratory, so, yeah, Jeff York 12:40 they're clueless. I mean, yeah, sure, we'll do this one actually. That's not physically possible, but sure try. So Dev Jennings 12:47 anyway, yeah. So my engineer buddies, you know, in grad school, I would talk to them about that, and also UBC, I observed things. So we did this one project just on the side, but it is relevant with the City of Richmond and British Columbia in Vancouver itself. And it was called the 50 year out planning. And we had, like, a simulation that was done 50 years out. And I put in the organization data other people, and you ran with city council, so you had the mayor there, yeah, and, you know? And they sat and they looked and they and then they made a policy for 10 years out, 20 years out, 30 years out, right? And then they said, well, now we're gonna commit to doing what was called the greening of Richmond. We're gonna put riparian edges. We're gonna do a bit on this, on the subway, of this, this change, this change in LED lights. And then three years later, one thing out of 20 was done. Yep, right. So, pattern, right? And so I always worried about that. I'm like, Oh, how do we, how do we actually get engagement, like you said, with the students, in a way that improves it? So the idea was in this paper, and with the science guys, is, okay, how can you know you've made a difference, and how do you actually get that engagement? So we said, Okay, let's take these products where that you want to sell. In this case, biochars are, like, super common. They're the standard product that everybody uses, like your bread of water filter. Yeah. Water Filter, you know, or any pool filter, you know, has charcoal in it, right? And so you activate that in a particular way, and that's like the standard private then you have a novel product. And we looked at a couple, like, one is this thing called chicken feathers. But you when you, interestingly, when you take chicken feathers off the farm and you put it through heavy acids, and you can cart it, just like your fingernail, into little serrated things, just like Chautauqua up there, where you've got the flat iron. Just run it right across the flat irons, and it pulls the colloidal mixture off. So it's exactly like that. So you can use that, or you can use nano solar and the little nano solar chips that take the light and then they refract it and do the chlorination type process like that. So there are three types, and we were, we looked at three types, and we ended up in what the paper in two types. So, you know, the chicken feathers was like, the more novel and versus more standard. And you're like, Okay, how can we induce people to get the more novel product? And in back it right? Of these three players, the core. Operations, these science guys are pushing it and then the community. Okay, so the real problem is the science says that the chicken feathers just doesn't process oil sands process water toxins as well as chicken feathers, like most novel products, right? So science is saying we want to develop this is new, but it's not quite as efficient yet, you know? Because that's how lots of early stage products are, you know, right? And so it says that. And it says also, the wetland design needs to be tweaked so there's more circulation of water. So, but still, let's back that. And so the standard science guys are saying that, right? And so it's cool, the business guys are saying, well, no, you know, no, right? It's too expensive for all that time is and also, you know, do we need that in the community? Folks are going, Hey, are you gonna ask us anything? Right? Because normally you ask those two and then you go to a town hall or a community consultation, and you present, this is the best science. And, yeah, right. And then people put stickies on this, and they go, maybe we'll do that. And then you walk out and you do what you were going to do, right? So we, Jennifer Jennings 16:08 at one point, we came up with the cutesy, academic part of the title that goes before the colon. We thought a really cute one would be, would you like your waist charred or feathered? Sorry, I yeah, Dev Jennings 16:23 that title has not been lost yet. I'm Jeff York 16:26 sure the reviewers Dev Jennings 16:29 will sort of around that title. Jeff York 16:32 This always happens when I have a cool title, like, you get to the like, the last round, I just don't like the title. I'm like, Dude, this was Jennifer Jennings 16:39 so fun. We love doing that. Yes. Isn't that fun? Dev Jennings 16:41 I'm good with that. We haven't lost it, which is good. I'm glad you think it's great, Brad, because that matters. Brad 16:50 Here's the other thing is, I've been helping scientists for a lot of my life, commercialized technology, yeah? Well, then Dev Jennings 16:56 you recognize, yeah. I mean, I'm I love this, right? Yeah, so, so. But then, based on my priors, how do I actually know that you can make a difference? So we chose this version of CO design. My buddy at IDEO had been working on CO design, co design, but there are different ways of doing co design and deep co design. So, you know, we literally went to stakeholders now burrow oil sands and solicit them data. Wintered it down to people who lived there. And then we got 12 teams of one type using Town Hall, and then 12 teams doing co design. And in the CO design, they were working with people who knew the science, with a corporation, person and the group, and they were, you know, given the same spiel and the town hall versus the other. But then the CO design teams were allowed to work with the oil sand product and try to put it in a wetland and choose the chicken feathers versus the biochar. They had the choice he was, like a lot of cooks in the kitchen, though, no, just Yeah, but they're only six people, because we put each of these six person teams so that you have the intermediary was trained, and you had a corporate person. Then you had these other folks who were from oil sands, you know, community, and then they, like, said, Okay, what do we want at the end? Now we took that and then we married it with what's called lifecycle analysis. And, you know, lifecycle analysis, so you've got the immediate impact of the product, but then we're in sustainability, so you want to know the longer range impact, right course. So we took lifecycle analysis, we ran the numbers by inputting their preferences, their new product, what they cared about, and then we tweaked the lifecycle analysis to actually then look at, okay, after feedback, which of the the CO design with this product, is it actually any better? Okay, when you include these guys, and it was, it cut down on water consumption, and it cut down your trophication, it cut down on Carson. Brad 18:36 When you include these guys, what exactly does that mean? That means Dev Jennings 18:39 like, Okay, I'm going to talk to you for a half hour about what the talk today. I'm going to give you this paper. I'm going to put all the pieces on the table, just like a Lego thing. You're going to put this wetland together. Which one do you like? Then you're going to score it after based on the same scoring system as the town hall guys, and you're going to see and then we're going to rate it based on an expert inter rater over here to check it, and then we're going to go and take it, we're going to run it in life cycle analysis. And we actually went through the labs. We went to the oils, and we we measured all all the stages of the life cycle, from farm all the way through the wetland, all the way back to run the LCA with these numbers, you Jeff York 19:16 guys are doing this as your research project. Yeah, yeah. And you just partnered with this organization or this group that was trying to actually do this commercial. Dev Jennings 19:23 No, I've been working you're at the science department. So this is, actually, this is, this is you say my team of, your team is working on, this is my team of so you're Jeff York 19:32 like, kind of doing this. Like, I mean, I don't want to call it action research, but Dev Jennings 19:37 we work with three scientists, like, you know, Muhammad and his teams and stuff, yeah, yeah, yeah, they're great. So Jeff York 19:43 okay, yeah, to clarify that for listeners, because you know now we talk about, we're not usually talking actually doing something. No, no, it's Brad 19:51 like an embedded reporter. Yeah, right, yeah. No, we're embedded with, with the with a developmental team, or the scientist scientific team. Yeah, we Dev Jennings 19:58 are cool. Do. Yeah, part of the science development, yeah, that's awesome team, right? Brad 20:04 That's a first for us. Jeff, actually, oh, two. First Jeff York 20:09 number one, we drank wine. Yeah, Brad 20:12 married couple, but actually embedded with a scientist or embedded, right? That are developing a well. So Jeff York 20:19 I've talked about some work where I was, like, embedded and part of the steering committee for something I was studying. This is different. Brad 20:26 This is totally different. Not Dev Jennings 20:30 about you, Jeff. This is wind studies. No, your studies on wind and things are like, you know, various, various renewables are like, brilliance. No, that AMJ paper is low. There we go. But Jeff York 20:48 I had nothing to do with wind energy. Like, I like, literally going afterwards and like talking to people, like, what do you think about wind energy? You were there? Like, I remember when they protested because it was going to give us all brain cancer. Oh, wow. Okay, that's interesting. But you're actually, like, trying to help commercialize a project, right? Yeah? And you're a part of the project. That's Dev Jennings 21:10 fascinating, yeah? And so the improvement part now, the second stage of the project, which we just ran the experiment on and are about to run in the field, is to take those products, and then we've got in the chucking over the fence. One of the main things that you do with like the novel product at this stage, at least in that part of the world, even with oil sands, is you can give it to corporate and they can run it, but sometimes they'll want to use seed funding and panel funding and let somebody else do the in between. Stage, right? Yeah, sure. Of like, pre beta, beta, like, you know, developments, are Brad 21:42 they funding the research? Corporates Dev Jennings 21:43 are funding there? Are they funding the research the future energy systems is based on the carbon tax and others that gave the big, grand funding. So the big, the overall grant funding is 75 mil for a bunch of oil sands related projects like this is one of 11, okay, of that, and so that came from a big fund based on carbon taxes and a bunch of things. So yes and no, right? Yeah, but I wanted to be clear, no, no, because that's important, as you say, it is important, right as to what your affiliation is, right stuff. So, but again, you guys care a lot about the positive and negative side of, you know, helping corporations. So, you know, I work in a business school because, and not a social department, environmental department, because people need jobs, and people need work, and you got to make changes that work for, you know, everybody can embrace the environment. Jeff York 22:36 I mean, things are actually gonna I mean, yeah, so I'm often trying to convince, like, Doc students over in environmental studies to come over and get this. They're great students too. They're brilliant, like, we also masters of environment programs and and they always want to stay in the Environmental Studies. I'm just like, they feel like they're selling out. And I'm just like, but guys like, if you're just talking to people who already believe what you're saying. There's no change. Aren't going to make any ability to actually implement that. Yeah, I don't know. I just, I mean, obviously I'm completely biased, but I think you can make a real difference in a business school. And I think, you know, unfortunately, we're at the point now where only solutions are going to possibly emerge, any kind of relevant time for environmental problems, are gonna have to come through business, yeah, Brad 23:23 and you have to make an economic case for it. You can't preach to someone to say, just change this because it's better for the environment. I wish this wasn't true, right? But just but this is the reality, right? But if you can show an economic reason why to change, that makes the discussion much easier. Dev Jennings 23:38 Yeah. I mean, if there are a lot of things you need to do, all of us need to do a bunch of things. But for me, I you know you can't, you can't leave organizations out of the equation. No, it's like there's just, especially in North America and the states in the world, the organizations make a huge difference. And so if you can't get those folks on side and science on side, the ability to change things is just Brad 24:01 drama, outsourcing research, though, yeah, no, they Dev Jennings 24:05 do core research and they outsource it. You know, corporations are, it depends on the company. Honestly, shells, shells unit is different than Exxon Mobil's unit is different than syncrudes. It's yeah, and where they actually locate their expertise in Europe versus North America? Why not? All vary quite a lot, but there's a lot of expertise around so trying to figure out how to drop it into any project is one of the things in this one like, what level of expertise is getting dropped in from these guys? And how do you do it so that it doesn't derail it, but it's incorporated, right? So Jeff York 24:37 you guys are doing these, these two dual process. You basically have these two product approaches to Dev Jennings 24:41 this problem, yeah, on two types of wetlands. The two wetlands are one, like, has all the bells and whistles, and one is much more naturally constructed. And there are two other intermediate types that are both in the actual experiment, right? But we just think of these things, yeah, yeah. We're horse racing, yeah, yeah. And Jeff York 24:57 so what'd you find, like, what's the, what's the, what Dev Jennings 24:59 do you think. Found that the nationally constructed one with chicken feathers over the course of one month through multiple rounds, will still be good enough, okay, to actually deal with it, but over the life cycle analysis, it actually is better. Wow. So yeah, long term, so short term, that's long term versus short, but also cheap versus expensive, but also big science versus small size, right? So Jeff York 25:21 that's a lot of challenges to stand up. Yeah, corporations is like, we're worried about the quarterly earnings. And so you make the cheapest possible decision, that actually is not the cheapest possible decision, not even just from a from an environmental perspective or a social perspective, but from the economic perspective. But you still make that choice, because all we care about is quarterly earnings. And Brad 25:39 actually, quarterly earnings disclosures are part of the problem, right? Exactly. I Jeff York 25:43 mean absolutely. So yeah. Dev Jennings 25:44 And so the next stage is, is you know how to pitch these things? Right? Yes. And so we're taking we are in our pitch experiment. We ran a male versus a female scientist running the novel versus standard product in front of government panels in the experiment. And we had first experiment was just vignette experiment with, you know, folks judging it. And the second experiment is actually with this, the seed funders both a VC type and a government type, in order to see which, you know, which of that two by two pairing. Okay, so does a woman. Normally, in research, we know that women, on average, on novel products, will be penalized more than men. Usually put a lead male, you know, senior scientist. And we also did better known versus less well known person. And that came up that way so far in the results. We also did a tweak on it. We ran one condition where all of it was done by the human, the other condition, the script and the slides and everything were all done by AI. And we want to see whether, you know, AI and Jen, you know, would be able to help us in some way to on sustainability, to get these things across more clearly, and whether. And then we had to reveal, like, Okay, guess what? All this was done by AI, by this person, not by that person, right? And so then we tried to reveal and then we wanted to see whether the female scientists would be punished more. And we can't, I can't tell you the results, because they're only, like three weeks old. But when you look at the simple results without controls, it looks like there's it's not what you expect. People were thinking, you see a lot more spread of the results. Certainly some people did punish the female scientist more, but not routinely, no, no. And people were like, okay, there either there's a big deal like NIH in the States is said, no, no, no use of no use of AI and grant writing or this or that. But then plus, and science reported that 25% ish of folks were using it, are using and constructing their grants and stuff. So I'm like, Well, you got to be able to world Right, right. What's the punishment factor after owning up, right? Or if somebody reveals it on panel, or somebody finds out, right? So we wanted to look at the punishment factor too, for men versus women. Interested scientists to see whether we could get over that, to get to better, you know, rollouts So, but Jeff York 28:06 there wasn't a consistent effect of punishing women. No, no, no, AI, but there was for the novel technology. Dev Jennings 28:14 But the novel technology seems like it was getting it was like, Well, do we really? It's almost people, like, there are too many credibility factors, right? With the AI, plus the novel, plus that, are you? Are you using it to, like, hype me sell. That's why, when you mentioned Matt and stuff on the hype thing, I've been, you know, we've been thinking about, you know, well, first Brad 28:36 of all, I know breakfast and Okay, so the first finding is going to get you Brexit. The second finding, though, I think is really interesting because, like, groups like the NIH, I don't understand why they don't kind of recognize what reality is and just say, okay, findings are findings. Why is there this bias against AI, yeah, we don't even that's Jennifer Jennings 29:01 a whole other podcast. Dev Jennings 29:04 No, you know, those are just tools, though, that they are tools, but they're very they're very rapidly evolving, complex tools that people are trying to figure out how to use. So, and I just finished teaching a data analytics class in the winter to the MBAs undergrad combined and and in it we, for instance, I ran a quant and a qual problem. So the quant problem was, you know, creating four data sets and a quadrant sort of scenario based on what was a regression equation of a startup's earnings. Okay? And I messed with the I messed with the intercept, so I knew the equation was wrong. And then I got him to run it in, you know, chat, GPT, four plus. And I got him to run it, I guess I shouldn't mention all these things, but, yeah, somewhere else, Gemini, but, but anyway, I ran Gemini. And the thing is, I mean, a wants to please, so it generated the four, and the approximations were pretty close. So the upside it would generate, but it wouldn't generate like, oh. This is incorrect. It wants to say this is correct within so the real answer was blah. So it became close, but it wouldn't say this is actually Brad 30:09 so if you understand the bias, though, if Dev Jennings 30:12 you understand but then, when I ran on the sustainability thing, like, Okay, on this particular sustainability problem with water, with this toxin, here's what it is, okay, yeah, what would you do in terms of policy with this? It generated nice lists of policies, and then you could drill down and drill down, and it was nowhere close to what the policy was in the region by the end of Brad 30:39 it. So was and so, I mean, how does this happen? Well, Dev Jennings 30:42 some people call it hallucinating, but I would just call it, you know, that's just reached the logical conclusion. But it was no, but it was like, you know, a gap between what was there. So, so you got to be super careful. And so prompting, we were very careful with our prompts, sure, and we didn't use an avatar, you know, we didn't use that we we'd already pre tested so we could equalize across the four cells. So people couldn't actually tell very well between the senior female this that, you know, there was enough range in the values that it wasn't, it was only when AI was put in where you saw differences. So So you have to be very careful, and that's just the stage we're at where people need to experiment a lot and be super cautious. But as you say, you know that's just where it is, and it's better to be transparent and own up. Yeah, totally agree. And Brad 31:35 if we're sitting here 100 years from now, who knows? Yeah, right. I mean it's gonna be really yeah, Dev Jennings 31:43 oh, I agree with that, right? It's Jeff York 31:45 yeah. It reminds me, yeah. I think it's like a more extreme version of the.com boom that is actually going to have far more reaching impacts than and now I'm saying this on the podcast. I guess I'll have to stick with it. But like, I just remember, like, the whole creation No, not the creation there. And, I mean, when Al Gore created the internet for us, but I just remember the whole, like, I remember Amazon being founded, you know, Google, hey, Dev Jennings 32:09 I used to use ARPANET files across campus, Jeff York 32:16 Brent, like, pitch for Google. Like, I mean, for, like, Angel rounds, like, and everybody's just like, ah, we got Alta Vista. What's that stupid? It's a no search engine. And now look where. I mean, so it's like, the implications of AI are much greater, though, and I think the unexpected, both positive and negative aspects of it, are going to be revealed in time. Dev Jennings 32:38 You know? What really helps is living with a technophile. She keeps me super honest. No no, because honestly, like, we've had this discussion with our entrepreneurship grad students and whatnot, like, how do we run exams now be given that AI and chatgpt are there and whatnot. And so she was one of the first ones to bring it up, being worried about technology. So you need that sort of positive right view. Let's embrace it view, along with a really skeptical like, you know, where are we view? And you need to embrace that as a person or have somebody else, but Brad 33:13 if you're sophisticated user, though you understand the downsides. What could come out of your search results or your your query? Yeah, Dev Jennings 33:21 but I still think, like on, you know, CEO or, man, you know how, how VCs will always set up teams. I mean, if you're setting up a team now in Gen AI or whatnot, you'd want somebody super critical, super skeptical, on your top management team of, honestly, you know, in the same way, at one point, you'd have a lawyer in the room on blah, blah, blah. Now you want somebody who's like an ultra skeptic, who knows things in order to keep you honest. I think I Jeff York 33:47 love that. Actually, that's cool. Yeah. Oh, back the paper, though. Actually, what do you think? Like, what is your main takeaway from this paper? Like, for people that are trying to address these problems, there's so many people that have great intentions, they're struggling so hard. Yes, Dev Jennings 34:00 I know. I just think that, you know, we all one of the takeaways is it's, it's a long journey, and just keep going at it and work hard with the folks as best you can, like scientists, care a lot, you know, the community folks, the corporations. They care a lot, if you can get them together, engaged in a way to co design, where people can figure out an incentive. Yeah, they'll do it. They will do it. They will do it. You're figuring out Jeff York 34:26 a collective, or at least different incentive. This is much like entrepreneurship, where you talk about letting people see what they want to see in the project, so they can create their own incentive in some ways, right? At least, that's why I always think about it, letting people see what they want to see and not be like, No, it's not about this. Oh, I just made you not want to do and Dev Jennings 34:43 it's not all Kumbaya, because you have a bunch of folks who in the in among the stakeholders. When we measure the, you know, we had extremes here in polls. We had wedge politics, right? And when we ran the measures to try to pull things together, we deliberately truncated the tails. Yeah, we. Literally took only the 75% Oh, centrist on the weights and tails, not the extremes. Yeah. And, you know, somebody's got to make decisions that say the tails have to be out of this part of the solution if we're going to get any modal stuff that works for the majority of folks. No, I'm just saying that as a takeaway, and it goes down to into the field, right down to the science itself, because that those things become wedged up later on, in a much worse fashion. Okay, right? Honestly. And so if you can avoid the wedging early, you can avoid more wedging later, okay, is one of the other takeaways, very Jeff York 35:41 cool. So a paper, we can't point you to it. It's not published yet. This Dev Jennings 35:45 project has been going five and a half, six years. That's quick in this world. It's gonna go a couple more years. Yeah, Jeff York 35:55 I think we're gonna So, yeah, well, I'll talk about that interview someone who presented their paper at this conference. Not this conference, but the next one we're doing, the Global Entrepreneurship innovation conference. Kirk, thank you. But anyway, they presented it, the last one that happened, which was well before the pandemic, and they just got published it. That's, that's pretty quick. Yeah. They were like, Oh, it took forever. Like, Dev Jennings 36:19 no, yeah. And there are many other things that could come out of this, but, yeah, you only have so much capacity. That's true. Jeff York 36:25 Yeah. Well, Dev and Jen, thank you again for joining us. You're enjoying your visit to Colorado. Absolutely. We're thrilled to have you here. Yeah, I think we better go on over to the barbecue and grab some food before it's all gone. Thanks everybody. Jeff York, Faculty Director at the Leeds School of Business dipping Center for Entrepreneurship. I Brad 36:43 am Brad Werner, and it was great to have both of you on thanks. Jeff York 36:46 A pleasure. Yeah. Dona L 36:54 This episode of creative distillation was recorded on the front porch of the Chautauqua mission house at the reversing the arrow conference held in Boulder in June 2024 devs paper is yet to be titled and is still in progress. Learn more about dev Jennings on his faculty page at the University of Alberta website. We'd love to hear your feedback and ideas, email us at cdpodcast@colorado.edu and please be sure to Subscribe to Creative distillation wherever you get your podcasts. The creative distillation podcast is made possible by the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado, Boulder's Leeds School of Business. For more information, please visit deming.colorado.edu that's D, E, M, I, N, G, and click the creative distillation link. Creative distillation is produced by Joel Davis at analog digital arts. Our theme music is whiskey before breakfast, performed by your humble host, Brad and Jeff. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here next week for the next round of creative distillation.

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The Story of Mesa Quantum and the Entrepreneur Who Defied the Odds

Emily Iliff — Thu, 07 Nov 2024 13:00:00 +0000

The Story of Mesa Quantum and the Entrepreneur Who Defied the Odds Emily Iliff Thu, 11/07/2024 - 06:00

Emily Iliff

For many, Boulder Colorado, is a beautiful town positioned at the foot of the Rocky Mountains, known for its scenic views and vibrant lifestyle. But for some, it’s the heart of groundbreaking quantum research, attracting bright minds from across the globe. Sristy Agrawal, a young physicist with a bold vision for the future of quantum research, found her calling at ��Ƶ Boulder.

With a background in physics and an undergrad degree from India, she traveled internationally during her studies, gaining diverse research experience in Japan and France. Driven by her fascination with quantum physics, she set her sights on a PhD in the United States. ��Ƶ Boulder’s renowned quantum program, particularly its AMO (Atomic, Molecular, and Optical Physics) curriculum, cemented her decision. She landed in Boulder, a town that not only offered academic prestige but was also, as she puts it, “just so beautiful.”

Choosing the US for her PhD was a calculated decision influenced by a mix of academic structure, language accessibility, and personal reasons. The American PhD system, with its longer duration and flexible curriculum, allowed her to explore different research areas before committing fully- a freedom not often afforded in Europe’s more rigid programs. Her fiancé had also come to the US for his PhD, adding a personal touch to her academic choice.

Misunderstandings and Quantum Discoveries

Stristys path soon led her into the entrepreneurial space, a world where physics PhDs are rare players. She had been curious about startups and wanted to learn the basics of business. To her surprise, ��Ƶ Boulder’s New Venture Challenge (NVC) provided the perfect gateway.

Her foray into entrepreneurship started with a simple classroom requirement: to pitch a business idea in the NVC competition. But launching a startup isn’t quite like publishing a research paper. Words like “pitch deck” and “term sheet” were alien to her. Determined to learn, she joined Brad’s New Venture Launch course, which introduced her to the language of entrepreneurship. The course not only familiarized her with business essentials but also culminated in participation in the NVC, where she pitched her idea for Mesa Quantum.

Building Mesa Quantum

The inspiration behind Mesa Quantum came from her observation of the quantum field. Quantum computing had taken center stage in the public eye, yet she believed its potential applications were years, if not decades, away. Meanwhile, she saw immediate, tangible opportunities in quantum sensing: a technology with the potential to transform GPS systems and beyond. Mesa Quantum focuses on creating resilient GPS alternatives to strengthen tech dependent infrastructure.

But building a tech startup isn’t for the faint of heart. With no business background and limited entrepreneurial support as an international student, she faced significant obstacles. Additionally, the technical complexity of her work meant that even experienced investors struggled to understand her pitch. Undeterred, she refined her message, learning to distill complex quantum concepts into digestible insights. Since its inception, Mesa Quantum has won acclaim and considerable funding. The company’s successes include the $125,000 Lab Venture Challenge, the $300,000 Rice Business Pitch Competition, and several other notable accolades. These wins haven’t just provided funding; they’ve validated the company’s vision and attracted industry attention.

A Quantum Chip for the Future: Mesa’s Vision and Mission

Mesa Quantum’s innovation addresses a critical gap in our tech ecosystem. Our current GPS systems are vulnerable to attacks and disruptions, as seen in recent global conflicts. Mesa Quantum aims to integrate GPS functionality directly into hardware, using a small quantum chip to enable timing precision without relying entirely on satellites. This approach could enhance resilience in GPS-reliant applications, from telecommunications to defense.

In the years ahead, she envisions Mesa Quantum leading the charge in quantum sensing technology. From autonomous driving to resilient communication systems, Mesa Quantum aims to reshape various sectors through innovative quantum solutions. As she puts it, “I want us to be the quantum sensing company.”

Overcoming Hurdles: Lessons in Resilience and Teamwork

Entrepreneurship, especially in a field as niche as quantum sensing, comes with its share of hardships. Language barriers, visa restrictions, and the daunting need to pitch “deep tech” to a largely unfamiliar audience were daily challenges. The biggest lesson? Surround yourself with a team that complements your weaknesses. Her co-founder, for instance, brought essential experience in nanoengineering and deep familiarity with US military contracts—critical assets for Mesa’s mission.

As Sristy reflects on her journey, she sees Mesa Quantum as more than just a company, it’s a testament to the power of vision and resilience. From navigating complex physics concepts to bridging cultural divides, her story embodies the spirit of perseverance in the face of odds. In a rapidly advancing field where each breakthrough seems out of reach, Sristy’s resolve and her team’s energy have propelled Mesa Quantum forward, turning ideas into impactful innovations. Boulder is now the birthplace of a company with the potential to revolutionize critical infrastructure and redefine the boundaries of quantum sensing. For Sristy, the journey of Mesa Quantum is only beginning, and her vision shines as a light for future pioneers in science and entrepreneurship.

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Creative Distillation Episode 70 - Bryn Rees, Associate Vice Chancellor for Research and Innovation

Emily Iliff — Thu, 31 Oct 2024 19:05:00 +0000

Creative Distillation Episode 70 - Bryn Rees, Associate Vice Chancellor for Research and Innovation Emily Iliff Thu, 10/31/2024 - 13:05

Emily Iliff

Get ready for a Halloween-themed episode like no other! This week on the Creative Distillation Podcast, it's the annual Halloween twist, joined by Jeff York and Brad Werner from ��Ƶ Boulder’s Leeds School of Business. They're diving deep into entrepreneurship with special guests Bryn Rees, Associate Vice Chancellor for Research and Innovation, and Emily Iliff, the Marketing Director of the podcast. The episode is packed with fall fun: Jeff and Brad swap stories about their Halloween traditions, sip on festive pumpkin beers, and even try unique cocktails crafted by Ethan Decker at Boulder’s own Pits and Stems.

It’s not all treats and cocktails- Bryn and the team explore the exciting shifts in ��Ƶ Boulder’s entrepreneurial scene, from innovative tech transfer to the remarkable New Venture Launch program. the episode wraps up with Halloween costume chats, horror film recommendations, and inspiring stories on the highs and lows of entrepreneurship. Join in for spooky sips, startup insights, and the Halloween spirit with the Creative Distillation crew, it's a seasonal special you won't want to miss!

To listen to the full episode, please click here.

Transcript

Welcome to another episode of creative distillation. Your host, Jeff and Brad from the University of Colorado, boulders, Leeds School of Business, discuss entrepreneurship research while enjoying fine craft beverages. Today, we pause our coverage of the reversing the arrow conference to bring you a creative distillation treat our annual Halloween episode. This time it comes with a twist. Instead of Jeff putting brad through another ritual pumpkin beer tasting, we return to one of our favorite locations, pits and stems, to sample some hand crafted fall flavored cocktails created by our favorite bartender, Ethan Decker, joining Brad and Jeff is Bryn Reese, Associate Vice Chancellor for Research and Innovation and Managing Director of venture partners at ��Ƶ Boulder, in short, Bryn and his group are at the center of tech transfer and new technological developments coming out of ��Ƶ as you'll hear, there's a lot to be excited about with regards to innovation. Here, tune in to learn more about this, as well as Jeff's horror film recommendations and other thoughts on this spooky season. Enjoy and cheers and happy Halloween. Jeff York 1:31 Welcome to Creative distillation, where we distill entrepreneurship, research and actual insights. I am your host, Jeff York, research director, no Faculty Director. I have new title you do that's very exciting. Another title. It's pretty exciting and scary as well. Brad 1:50 And I'm joined by my co host, Brad Werner from the Deming center. And Jeff, it is great to see you. Jeff York 1:55 It's great to see you, Brad, it's your favorite time of the year, Halloween. I know you, I know you love it and you're excited. And you know, you just were so excited you had to invite your first ever guest that you solicited onto the podcast. Yeah, Brad 2:09 no, I'm really excited about our guests, because with Halloween, first of all, you know how much I love Halloween. I hate it. Brad Jeff York 2:15 loves Halloween. Brad 2:15 I look forward to the day after Halloween because it really kind of starts to line up the holiday season, yeah? And I'm sure you like it too, because every pumpkin beer goes on sale. Jeff York 2:24 Well, I think more of like the first of September lines up the holiday season, because that's when my Halloween celebration starts. Yeah, it does. It goes for a long goes for a long time. You know, it involves the fall and, you know, going to the mountain, seeing the leaves change and and watching nothing but horror movies. Oh, really, you'll be excited about that. You love horror movies just as much as you love Halloween. What are you gonna be for Halloween this year, Brad ? Brad 2:49 Hiding, Jeff York 2:51 He'll be here all week. Ladies and gentlemen, you introduce your guest. Let Brad 2:55 me give it a try. Bryn, first before and you can correct me. Bryn Rees 2:58 This is like letting chat. GPT, tell me about Yeah, Brad 3:03 so, so Brynn is the Vice Chancellor, associate associate Chancellor, Associate Vice Chancellor, okay, Bryn Rees 3:16 Associate Vice Chancellor of Research and Innovation, right? Awesome,which really means that you run tech transfer, we can get into that, but let's go for it for now. Okay, okay, Brad 3:26 so, right, so, but Brynn actually sees all the really cool scientific innovations that come through the university, exactly, right? Really great. And we've had a chance to work together on a few ventures, and the innovation that's coming out of ��Ƶ is incredible. The program has just gone gangbusters. Since you've been here. How many years now? Bryn, Bryn Rees 3:45 I've been here 15 years. I've been in this role for 10 years, and I can say that I'm in a completely different job than when I started, and it's a completely different ecosystem. Yeah, that's great. Brad 3:54 And actually, data has told us that we are number two in startups. Bryn Rees 3:59 That is correct. You know, there's a lot of ways to look at startups and a lot of types of startups at universities, but one of the ways is to say how many startups came out of the research labs in a single year. And if you look at that metric, then ��Ƶ Boulder is number two all time. So the most ever was Stanford University, unsurprisingly, right? Fair enough, in 2002 Jeff York 4:19 they do have a slightly larger endowment in the ��Ƶ. I mean, just, just about a few they Bryn Rees 4:24 do zeros zero, and we did 35 in the last year. So that was, that's amazing. You Boulder, kind of coming out party for startups. But I would definitely say it's one of those, like overnight successes, 10 years in the making, Brad 4:38 right? That's, that's, that's fabulous. So congratulations. It's great for Jeff York 4:40 all of us, actionable insight. I think it's actual insight so Brad 4:45 but because it's Halloween, Jeff, I always bring a taster, and I'd like my taster to say hello. She's a friend of the cast. Emily Iliff 4:50 Hello. My name is Emily, and I am the Marketing Director of creative distillation podcast. Yay. Jeff York 4:57 We're so glad you're here. Liz, good to see you again. Welcome back. Glad to be here as well. All right? And then we have, we have one more guest, yeah, well, this Brad 5:07 is really, really cool, and we are lucky to call him a friend of the show, right? Josh, absolutely. Jeff York 5:11 I am thrilled to be back here at Pitts and stems on. Should we say what route it's on now we will. It's in Boulder. It's in a garage, and if you can find it, then maybe you can also meet Ethan. Yeah, so just Brad 5:27 start knocking on doors. Ethan Decker 5:30 It's Halloween. That does tend to happen. Jeff York 5:33 It's true. So do you usually invite trick or treaters back here into the bar? Ethan Decker 5:39 Most trick or treaters don't appreciate fine cocktails. Yeah, Jeff York 5:42 what we do? And we're thrilled to be here again. Thank you for having us. Thanks Ethan Decker 5:45 for coming back, gentlemen. So Jeff York 5:47 you know, normally for our Halloween episode, we have a fine variety of pumpkin beers, which Brad is a huge fan of and always excited to taste and sample many, many pumpkin beers. And he's been doing this, I think, for three years running now. So if you are a regular listener of creative distillation, first of all, bless you. Please give us a five star review. Put some review in the Apple podcast thingy or the Spotify podcast, whatever you want to do. Just, just do something, but don't do anything less than five stars, because that will not be good. So now, now you're gonna be disappointed because we're not drinking any pumpkin beer this year. Pumpkin beer this year. Brad 6:23 How did that happen? Jeff York 6:24 I don't know. I think it was Emily. I'm pretty sure it was Emily suggested we're Emily Iliff 6:30 doing pumpkin cocktails. We're upping our game. We're becoming more sophisticated. Ethan, Jeff York 6:34 is that true? Ethan Decker 6:35 I would say yes. I would hazard a guess that a pumpkin cocktail order. Oh, cocktail. So bread just Jeff York 6:44 when you thought you'd escaped. Brad 6:46 I really thought walking into Ethan's garage day I was safe. Jeff York 6:51 You're never safe at Halloween, Brad 6:55 this is a nightmare for me. Yeah, this Jeff York 6:57 is gonna be great. It's gonna be great. It's gonna be away like so should we start off with some drinks? Ethan Decker 7:02 Yes, okay, absolutely. All right. Brad 7:04 What do you have in mind, Ethan? Jeff York 7:05 So if you're interested in learning more about the history of pits and stems, you're going to want to go back to Episode 62 in which there is a more elaborate history of this place. And we still won't tell you where it is on there, but it's an amazing establishment, Ethan. You wanna give us abbreviated history of where we are, like a really quick one. Well, my Ethan Decker 7:25 day gig is marketing and branding and brand strategy, but pits and stems is a project of applied brand science. We are boulders best speakeasy, and I like to say that we might have the best cocktails in Boulder, but maybe not. You can only find out by coming I've got a few things on the menu. We've got a bourbon cocktail with some homemade pear vanilla syrup. We've got something else with my wife's homemade apple cider as well. Really, yep, that's called the Covered Bridge. That's bourbon or rye. Like a covered bridge, a Jeff York 8:05 headless horseman might go over and, like, walk your way. Brad 8:10 Never met a Halloween nerd before. Ethan Decker 8:14 I have a drink lined up called dad's cardigan, which is an amaro based cocktail. Some maple syrup, and then you can kind of got something called the Upper Peninsula, which I have developed, which is based with Calvados, which is an apple brandy. Oh my gosh. Bryn Rees 8:30 I mostly don't know the words that you just said, but definitely They sound amazing, especially the homemade Cider. Ethan Decker 8:39 Okay, something with a little homemade cider for you? Brent, yeah, I'll make a couple so you can taste a few different things. Sure Jeff York 8:46 sounds wonderful. Thank you so much. Okay, so Brent, you've been here 10 years at ��Ƶ what have you seen change and evolve about, like, the entrepreneurship that's happening out of the university? I'm a loyal loss. I don't have a paper to ask you, but I can't, like me slapping a paper down and like, you know, looking at the abstract. We've never, ever done this. I'm loving this. We've never done this. So you are the you have the honor of being Brad's only invited guest, as well as the only person to ever be on creative distillation without a paper to flog. So Bryn Rees 9:16 all of the stats I'm going to mention are not peer reviewed. The statistical significance could be absolutely Brad 9:25 terrible. So Speaker 1 9:26 what has changed? So when I got here at 2009 it was such a different environment. And I would say that the majority of faculty that I would meet, meet with to talk about entrepreneurship, kind of would sometimes look at me like, What do you want from me, you know, like, I think I'm supposed to do this, and I don't really want to do it right. And fast forward to today. I'm just going to start on the, you know, the people, sorry, so many other things have changed, but now I get calls from folks faculty. Who are not even at ��Ƶ yet. They're coming here in six months or three months, and they're like, I want to know what kind of entrepreneurship resources are here, what kind of programs, what kind of support I've got a startup, or I want to do a startup. So I would say that the culture is completely different, and everything else comes out of that. So I could say, yeah, we've got a venture fund and a startup accelerator and all these cool new programs, right? But none of that means anything if we don't have a culture of entrepreneurship right in the faculty and their grad students and their postdocs. Jeff York 10:29 Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, there are some, like, structural changes that have occurred. But would you say the bigger change has been, like, more cultural, like people just thinking, like, well, this is just sort of normal and something we do. And, I mean, we were also just listed. There was a new thing, yet another ranking, because we needed another ranking, actually, as well. It's pretty interesting. So it's in confess company, yep, Empath, right, yeah, just they did mention the best professor at the University, which I was very happy to see. That was good. Bryn Rees 10:56 Oh yeah, yeah. And that being yourself, yeah, of course, yes. Okay, very good. Jeff York 11:08 Here's something we could get. No, I was really surprised they mentioned me. I was like, what? That's really weird Bryn Rees 11:13 from 80th to 33rd Yeah, exactly, Jeff York 11:15 straight into that 33rd side. So Bryn Rees 11:18 I have read that, and I will say this, there are a lot of universe university rankings of entrepreneurship, or things of measures that are used as a proxy for entrepreneurship that are terrible, yeah, things like issued US patents, which are just very fast. It's just so narrow, right? And so what I like that Fast Company has done is at least try to be a little more holistic. So they've got number of alumni startups, and how much did those how much capital did those companies raise? And something about tech transfer that they didn't really disclose how they were measuring that, and research funding. And so they're trying to kind of look at innovation. Yeah, Jeff York 11:52 they're looking at new systems. Yeah, well, that's why I thought from the ranking, and it's like it was, seemed to be talking more. Was it like the number of startups like, because, I mean, we know that's not necessarily a very like, you know, Brad and I can just go create every student team in our class. We can create a startup. We can have them become an LLC. And that would be a terrible thing for us to do. I mean, it would just be responsible, in my opinion. But, boy, we don't write startups. I Bryn Rees 12:18 mean, ranking, Chase, chasing the ranking does happen, right and but what I love about all our ecosystem is that people don't do that. They're saying, what's the right thing to do to impact the present state, exactly, and the rankings will come because one of the issues with all these rankings is it's like looking, I'm going to get into some physics here. It's like looking at the at a star in the night sky, and you're actually looking back in time, right? The light from that star is traveling. For that star may have long burned out. And the same thing with rankings. If we're looking at how much capital that startups has raised, what did the university do to catalyze that? It happened five years ago, 10 years ago. So when a ranking comes out, I think, well, that's a reflection of ��Ƶ Boulder and everybody else, five years ago, 10 years ago, and what we're doing today, we're not going Speaker 2 13:05 to know in rankings. That's really a great, a great insight, and scary, actual insight. Jeff York 13:14 I don't know what that was. That is called annihilation, the alien. I didn't quite get that from that. I didn't either, but anyway, that I did think that's that is an interesting insight that most people are probably not aware of. When you look at the university rankings, they come out every year, and you're thinking, Oh, well, so and so moved up. And really, what you're looking at is what happened quite some time ago. And so you gotta start, I mean, for have those effects on those things, you gotta start laying those tracks. Now, I guess it's Bryn Rees 13:41 really pronounced in my field, where we're, you know, we're working actively with folks in, especially in science and engineering, on these early stage ideas for that to become a product on the market. I mean, we're talking 10 plus years, yeah, yeah, Jeff York 13:54 which is amazing, but that's Brad 13:56 deep tech, right? That's deep tech. That's what it is. But deep tech is Bryn Rees 13:59 really freaking cool too, right? To change the world it is. And by the way, if we were looking at that star, and we wanted to know what the star is made out of, like, what the substance that is burning in that star, we could do that with ��Ƶ technology, just from the Brad 14:13 light, amazing, right? So, when you, when you think about, kind of your 10 years, tell me the the fields that you're really excited about now that maybe that didn't exist 10 years ago. Bryn Rees 14:26 That's a great, a great question. You know, I've a couple of advanced degrees in in science, and yet most of the stuff that I see didn't exist when I was in graduate school. So it's totally new. So a couple of examples of that. Genome engineering has come so far. Before I got into university, entrepreneurship, I worked in pharma, in genomics, right? So cutting edge stuff, but if I think about what we were doing then versus what we can do now, it's just like light years. So as an example, if we wanted to truly cure somebody's disease, that. Was science fiction 10 years ago, 20 years ago, and now you see people with these, you know, congenital disorders. There's something wrong with your immune system. We're not treating that. We're fixing their genes, right? So something has gone wrong with, let's say, their their T cells, and how they can respond to disease, reactive after, yeah, after you have symptoms, yeah, it's incredible, right? So that's an example that just it didn't exist when I started in this field, right? Brad 15:27 I would say actually, the mapping of the genome is probably one of the biggest scientific achievements in my lifetime, right? And we have 100 years to go until we really see what the outcome of that discovery is going to Bryn Rees 15:39 be, absolutely. So the company I was at was GlaxoSmithKline, and we were doing some very cool things in terms of leveraging what was available through the Human Genome Project to say, why do people respond differently to drugs? Why does it work for some people have no effect on others and actually be detrimental to another part of the population? And that was, you know, I was 20 plus years ago, and we're only just now starting to make progress in that really cool Ethan just set Jeff York 16:06 something in front of us. Is this finished? Ethan? Are you still building it? Ethan Decker 16:10 Nope, that is ready to be enjoyed. Jeff York 16:12 Okay, well, I gotta ask you about it. Then Sorry to interrupt. Ethan Decker 16:15 This is called the flannel shirt. It is some blended scotch, homemade apple cider, Amaro Averna, lemon juice, and then a bunch of other little things, like a little bit of maple syrup, a little bit of St Elizabeth allspice DRAM, and then a little bit of Angostura bitters. And I think you're excited about the ice cube. Jeff York 16:36 The Ice Cube is a large square of ice with a flour frozen in it. It's incredible, right? Ethan Decker 16:44 Those are flowers from our garden. Jeff York 16:45 I take a picture like, we gotta taste this. Cheers. Cheers to the flannel shirt. Brad 16:49 Nothing better than a good flannel shirt. Jeff York 16:52 Well, I mean, the aroma is like, immediately evokes like apple orchards and like fall apple picking, kind of leather Brad 16:59 to me, I wasn't this so much more refined than pumpkin beer. Well, Ethan Decker 17:04 the Beer Fest just has a different vibe than a cocktail, right? Yeah, exactly. I Brad 17:09 like the cocktail vibe myself. Jeff York 17:10 Well, pumpkin cocktails coming. So, yeah. So this has got, like, initial greatness, and then, like, get the maple syrup, for sure. I taste the same Elizabeth in there. This is just delicious. The other Ethan Decker 17:24 thing I love about this cocktail is its base spirit is scotch. And Scotch cocktails are a rare yes and B, difficult to create because Scotch is often smoking overpowering. This has a lot of other stout things that stand up to it, and then they all kind of punch each other in the face and blend harmoniously together. But Jeff York 17:45 I do get a little bit of the smoke in the background, just a hint. It's really nice. This kind of gives you that outdoor, fireside kind of fall feeling, least, that's what I'm thinking of. Bryn Rees 17:56 That's a very sophisticated palette. I like it. Jeff York 18:02 What was the foam you put on top? Or the DRAM your top there the DRAM that Ethan Decker 18:07 was some of the homemade apple cider, but it's a foamy apple cider that I've concocted with it. So it's a little bit of a, yeah, an apple cider foam float. Do Brad 18:18 you have apple trees on your ranch? Ethan Decker 18:19 We have a honey crisp. Oh, you do, yeah. We planted it about 15 years ago for anniversary. Fabulous. And it, it probably bears fruit every other year because the springs in Colorado were pretty various. Yeah? Jeff York 18:34 Awesome. Thank you. Ethan Decker 18:35 This is, it was a good year for the apple. Did Jeff York 18:37 you taste this brand? It's Ethan Decker 18:41 The other thing I love about doing this isn't just concocting new things, but using what's around. So when there's fresh mint in the garden, we do a lot of things with mint. Oh yeah, when my wife makes something like elderberry syrup, I use a lot of that. When apples are booming, we make things with apples. Jeff York 19:00 So did you create this cocktail? Ethan, or is this it's one of your own creations. It's Ethan Decker 19:04 a it's based on something I found, but ultimately, I've modified it a bit again to use the local ingredients and to make it a pits and stems. Originally, I Brad 19:15 don't think I've ever had anything Jeff York 19:16 quite like that. I mean, it's the sale. Elizabeth, I've just been drinking so many Tiki cocktails. Elizabeth DRAM immediately evokes like a jet pilot or a zombie or, yeah, Ethan Decker 19:28 or the all spice, yeah, there are a couple things in cocktails that don't play well, right? You know, it's the same way that, like, you know, grapefruit flavor doesn't play super well, or with things. Or pineapple, you know, pineapple stands out so much in your food. So when you have those things, you got to pull them way, way, way back. So in this case, it's maybe a half of a teaspoon right between both cocktails, because you just need that little little scotch. Look at Jeff York 19:55 the flower, but the overwhelming aroma I get from it is the Apple like that seems to come. Cross. Oh, this Brad 20:00 is apple pie to me. Yeah, right. It's Jeff York 20:02 very what I was saying is almost like an apple Tiki cocktail to me, because it's sweet, it's balanced. It's also got that richness on the bottom end that usually get from the rum. But here, oh yeah, it's a Ethan Decker 20:16 challenge to use sweet ingredients and not make a cocktail that's overly saccharine, right? So, Bryn Rees 20:22 so does that have honey in it? Ethan Decker 20:23 This has a little maple syrup, but again, dialed back from a lot of the recipes you'll find, because I think they're overly sweet. So you need a little maple syrup flavor. You need a little apple flavor. And people often, I mean, you hear it in wine all the time, people say this wine is so sweet, and what they really mean is it's fruity, but it doesn't have any actual sweetness or sugar to it. They're Jeff York 20:44 getting that fruit flavor, yeah. Now, considering it was 90 degrees yesterday in Boulder, it's uh but today it's nice and cool. It's perfect. It's love getting into the actual spirit of Halloween. When do you like Halloween? I love Halloween. Yes. Great Bryn Rees 20:59 answer. Nothing is Halloween me, to me, more than being way too cold in some kind of, you know, absurd costume. And it was a nice day, you know, on October 31 in Boulder. And then the temperature drops 1015 degrees, and it's, it's a little challenging. Jeff York 21:18 Now, is this because you go trick or treating with Bryn Rees 21:20 us. I absolutely go trick or treating. I've got a 12 year old and a nine year old. Jeff York 21:25 Because what you were just telling me is like that is, that is, my kids are 17 and 20, so they they go wreak havoc in whatever ways they do. And I just the police don't show up on Halloween. But I so remember so many times we go trick or treating in Boulder, and it'd be like the day before, 80 degrees, sunny, gorgeous. Sure enough, Halloween, like, right about noon, a cold front comes in, or maybe even, like, five o'clock, like, they come in, and it starts like, wind starts howling as it does. It drops to, like, just around, not cold enough for it to actually be like freezing, like, just feel three with wind, and then the snow and rain starts to come. Yeah, that's my Halloween. Brad 22:08 Just like elk hunting. Jeff York 22:11 I got a story about anyway, we won't do that. Okay, all right, so there's been those kinds of changes that have happened over time. Brynn, what do you think? Like? What does the future look like? As far as like, I mean, the entrepreneur, because you have a view that Brad and I, you know, we, we get involved in things across campus. We try to help out, you know, we go to the New Venture Challenge and sit in the very top and do our Muppets thing, yeah, but, you know, but you see, you have, like, a much broader view, like, what are you most excited about in the future, and maybe, where are some of the challenges we face in the university. Bryn Rees 22:42 I mean, forward, I think that Brad, our connection is a microcosm of where the university's going. And if there's one word, where there's opportunity and where we're addressing the current challenge, which is fragmentation and style, yeah, it's integration. And So Brad, we've got. So you're, you're in the College of Business, I'm in a, you know, campus wide group, and we're, we're working together, you know, against all odds, right? That's where, that's where this university is headed, right? Well, so Brad 23:15 for me, Bryn, I'm not an academic, right? So I'm an entrepreneur, and I've been searching out opportunity, right? What would make great businesses, and how do you accelerate and really light the rocket on some of these things? And that's how I found you, right, right through Betsy and some of the things we've done. And I have a company that came out of tech transfer from MIT, so I understand the importance of what this is, and it's just, it's really cool. Jeff York 23:37 What are you guys working on? Like, together? I don't think we've talked about that explicitly, happy on that name. So Brad 23:41 no, so let's talk about some of the classes or some of the teams that came through new venture launch last year. Yeah. Bryn Rees 23:48 So we had Icarus quantum Yep, was one. We had Mesa quantum systems. Was two, right? And we now your class is not a quantum class, but we did have two and Brad 24:03 then a filter company. Oh, that's right. Do you remember what the innovation was? It was a bit, I think it was a very high powered or very improved filter system that could be integrated into a current line of chip manufacturers. Okay, great. Bryn Rees 24:19 I know less about that one. So let's Brad 24:23 right, but so anyway, we have two quantum companies in common, and those companies very different, by the way, but they really have the chance to change the world, both of them in different ways. Bryn Rees 24:33 Yeah. And what I think what is common between the two is a highly motivated, engaged, recent PhD grad who's just got a ton of hustle, great attitude, and is going to be the differentiator in both cases. I totally Brad 24:48 agree. And here's the thing, not only, I mean brilliant people, but quality humans, yes, and, and so that even makes working with them for me times 10x right? Bryn Rees 24:59 It's. And then coming back to Jeff, you were saying, So what are some of the problems? This is not a actually, Jeff York 25:05 if you don't mind, just want to dig a little more into that, because you're not as familiar with these companies as you guys. What degree is like, the focus on quantum of two of these companies and, and let's actually rewind just a little bit more from New Venture launch, like, I don't think we've ever talked about that on the podcast, right? So you want to Brad 25:20 talk? Yeah, yeah. So Jeff, Jeff actually launched new venture launch five years ago through a grant from the intuitive foundation I took over from Jeff. This will be my third year. So grant funded where we can actually provide funding for some of these startups, a legal foundation, and any sort of mentorship that they need, and really get them moving. And it's truly incredible. So from last year, I think every venture, these are not teams, these are not student teams. Every venture is still moving forward, and the quantum ones are gaining great traction. And the really cool thing about the class is, is that it's open to the entire cu ecosystem, right? Do Jeff York 26:00 you still require the applicants to represent at least two disciplines on cu campus? I Brad 26:06 just leave it open, and it just is dependent as to what the pool is. Okay? Great. So last year, we had 60 applicants, and we took 20 and range, yeah, it ranges from we had a sophomore who had won the US Robotics Championship twice, all the way to PhD professors, right? I mean quantum professors and postdocs and MBAs, lawyer I mean, or law students. And it's just, it's truly incredible when we put these teams together, and many of them meet it in the classroom and actually move and move forward together. Yeah. Bryn Rees 26:42 So what I love about new venture launch is that very often my group, which is a group of about 25 folks, are working with these innovators, and they've got tremendous technology, but when it comes to product market fit and when it comes to a revenue model, they're they're really needing a lot of help. So they're brilliant, and they can pick this stuff up, no problem. But they've never been exposed to it. Oh no. So having a formal, structured program like new venture launch, and we had a couple companies go through when you were teaching it, too, Jeff and some of them have gone on to do some really great things. First, COVID, Jeff York 27:15 I was like, oh my god, I gotta find better. And that led me over to venture partners. Yeah, it really did, because, like, we were, we were we started the class. We were doing kind of a traditional thing of, you know, oh well, these students have an idea and they want to explore. And this, there's a place for that, absolutely, on campus, and it's the vast majority what we teach. It's like students coming in, they don't really have any experience, they don't really have any technology, they've got an idea, usually bad and they're trying to explore, but we wanted to create something totally differentiated that was actually about real companies. Like, how do we take real companies have links to ��Ƶ Boulder and launch them? How do we make the transition from the campus to the real world? Yep, and that was the whole goal of the thing. Bryn Rees 27:59 So seeing the progress that Icarus and and Mesa made last year was was tremendous. Yeah, Brad 28:06 I have to tell you, though, as someone that's customer focused, the first time that I talked to a quantum scientist and say, Tell me about your first customer. Look at me like, I'm from Mars, yeah. Bryn Rees 28:16 But I mean, no matter what question you ask, you may get the same answer, which is, how does their science work? Right? Jeff York 28:25 So true. Yeah. So even you're a marketing guy, like, what do you what do you think? Like you ever deal with people that, like are technologists or entrepreneurs, and they just have no idea how to create or you have to try to help them understand how to do this all the time, but the beauty never happened to me. No, no, Ethan Decker 28:44 obviously, obviously. The beauty of what I've I've learned, and what I've started to do is I figured out how to give those folks an intuitive, personal understanding of how some of these mushy, emotional things really work, so that it's not abstract. It's not the data trying to persuade them or convince them of something, and especially when it comes to things like mascots, right? Mascots seem silly. Mascots seem illogical. Let's talk about the features, the benefits, if it's in B to B, we're dealing with rational agents and large committees and procurement departments. But you know what, all those people go home and watch True Detective. They like they like TV, right? They like interesting things probably Jeff York 29:33 watch. It's the Great Pumpkin Charlie Brown, exactly. Ethan Decker 29:35 And none of them know what brand of toilet paper they probably wipe their butts with nor do they know that brands story, nor do they know the features and benefits of where it's manufactured Jeff York 29:47 that made me weird? Yeah, absolutely, Ethan Decker 29:52 I've done this and at this point quantitatively, and I have good quantitative data that that it's like one in 200 That knows what toilet paper they Bryn Rees 30:01 really use. I love where you're taking us Ethan, which is like the psychological side of your customer, right? And what is their experience exactly? Something that we talk a lot to our founders about is empathy and and getting out of the let's just, let's just be real. It's kind of like a self absorption with our own work and our own product, product, our own technology, and completely put that to the side and say, Who is this person across from me? What is their world? How do they make decisions? And really try and have some kind of like resonance with their experience bingo Ethan Decker 30:35 and most people can't find their car keys in the morning, so they're not going to really dig into all the features and benefits of your product or company. So make it simple. One of the phrases I use, especially with engineering types, is a when it comes to a business or brand or all of those aspects of marketing, you gotta overthink it, and then you've gotta under think it. You've gotta radically under think it, for instance, most of us probably Jeff York 31:04 actual insight. Ethan Decker 31:06 Most of us can't tell the difference between State Farm and Farmers Insurance when it comes to their features, their products, their services, but Jeff York 31:13 we know they're bad. We know their mascots, yep, yep, flow and whatever. The guy right guy that was in whiplash, the Ethan Decker 31:26 mayhem guy, the meerkat. Guy in Europe, right, right. We know all those things, because this is, this is, think about it, a very complicated financial service that is used when it's, yeah, when, when stuff goes really bad, like your house gets demolished or someone gets injured. It's insurance, right? And they figured out that, okay, we have to underthink it, radically. Underthink it so much so that if your brand name is Geico, your logo shouldn't be an elephant or a giraffe. It should be one letter away, a gecko, Geico Gecko. That's how underthinking they got to do it, because it's not like any of us are dumb. It's just that even when it comes to our own insurance products, we don't really want to give that much time and attention to it. We want to make it easy and trust that the company will be there when stuff goes bad. Brad 32:18 I think it should be called Frelk Did Brynn see the frog? Did you? Yeah? Chance to check this out. Jeff York 32:26 I mean, I've got them on all my larva. I've got one on my guitar. They're awesome for those Ethan Decker 32:31 listening at home. The frolic is the logo for Applied brand science. It is a kind of version of a jackalope, I guess. Yeah, it's a frog with elk antlers. It's Jeff York 32:40 awesome. Yeah, it is. Brad 32:41 So I've been working with scientists for a long time, and large part of my investing life. And I will tell you that if you get and I think I've mentioned this to Bryn before, if you pay a scientist about 150,000 a year, you give them a world class lab and a great pizza every day, you will never see them again, right? You won't, they'll be, they'll be so happy. Is that an insight, Jef? Jeff York 33:05 You know, we don't got a paper. I think that's actionable, though. Yeah, I think there are people in the world that can afford to find a scientist and afford to get them a pizza and a desk, yeah? And they probably be a lot better off doing that than sitting around and coming up with their ideas, yeah, but Brad 33:19 the world class lab, though, actually helps quite a lot. Jeff York 33:23 Seriously, though, I often mean, you know, we're here. We're here in Boulder. For those of you not from Boulder, it is a wash in high net worth individuals, many of whom want to talk to people like me about their ideas, like when we're at a party or whatever, and their ideas are pretty bad, because they're not based around anything. They're just like, I got this idea, and because I came up with it, it's good, it's a good idea. If we build it, there's no there's no underlying I think this is the, this is why I'm so excited about the direction of working more between business and engineering, because it tends to be the case in my experience. And these are really crude generalizations, but, but but having been teaching here for like, 13 years, tends to be the case. Their engineers absolutely understand how to make things work. They will not have survived long enough to make it into one of my classes. If they have not gained that level of understanding, the engineering curriculum is just too much. They won't get there. The Business students tend to have good ideas about how to they know how to build a revenue model on Excel. They know they should have a brand, and they know that pitching is important. But their ideas are tend to be outside the laws of physics if they're technology based. And so when you bring these two disciplines together, and I think the next step is trying to teach the same people both disciplines. Yeah, because bringing the teams together is one thing, but imagine programs that teach people all right? Yes, you're going to have to learn to a certain level of competence engineering skills as well as business skills. I mean, I think that would be something that would really potentially change the world. In a lot of ways. And I And when Bob Dobkin, the founder of intuitive foundation, I sat in his house and he told me that I think five, six years ago, because I was going out there and talking to him about potential gift to the University, I nodded and smiled and said, Yes, Bob, of course, you're right. He's so much more right than I ever thought he was, you know. Brad 35:19 And I spoke to Bob six months ago, and he's thrilled about the work that we're doing. I mean, he's thrilled. I mean, so Bob effectively invented the the computer chip. So he looks at the outcomes of new venture launch, Jeff York 35:30 and then spent the next 50 years trying to work with business people. Yeah, right. Brad 35:35 I mean, seriously and, and he's actually met with some of our team members, including Mesa Quantum. Yeah, right. So he's just, he's he's great. So it's fun. I like Jeff York 35:46 the COVID. Ethan Decker 35:46 Oh, that's the early snow. Well, no, sorry, the September snow. It is a pear based and bourbon based cocktail. It's got a bourbon. It's got some wild turkey 101, which is my go to for good Kentucky bourbon. Really, it's got Poor William, which is unaged pear brandy from France, a little bit of sweet vermouth, and then some homemade pear and vanilla syrup that I made. It's like, it's Bryn Rees 36:18 really incredible. Ethan, really Brad 36:20 incredible. Ethan Decker 36:25 Yes, Jeff York 36:26 yeah, the first time we were going to come here, we were like, This dude's garage. Like, sit and drink. Yes, great. It's not some dude. I mean, it is some dudes garage, but it's also, Brad 36:40 It's a great bar. Jeff York 36:40 I think the best cocktails and possibly the best bar in all boulder. Yes, Brad 36:44 are there other speakeasies in Boulder? You Ethan Decker 36:46 don't know if any. I think they're, they're at least a couple other garage bars. That's know how Jeff York 36:52 that this is, this drink is amazing. Different patrons. Ethan Decker 36:55 They've had. I've had about 200 folks come through that I've met just because they were interested in trying out some cocktails. Yeah, now they're members, Jeff York 37:04 cool. Would you be having a Halloween gathering? Ethan Decker 37:07 We will be having a Halloween gathering. Oh, yeah, excellent. I Jeff York 37:13 will come make zombies go to cocktail, and it's thematic, right? Brad 37:19 Check this out. Joel. Jeff York 37:22 Joel, I Joel's in Brad 37:24 the back with his feet up on the desk. He's all good. Well, Jeff York 37:27 so Okay, so now we'll rewind back to where we're I'm getting better at this, like, keeping up with where I distracted everybody from. So not necessarily problems. But what do you think are like, some of the obstacles like that we face that we got to kind of prepare for in the coming I've been working on the strategy for the business school for the last like year or so, and so I know what I think. I'm just curious to get your perspective right. Like, you know, as far as being an entrepreneurial ecosystem, see you advancing itself in entrepreneurship and innovation. What do you think are some of the obstacles we face? You Bryn Rees 37:58 know, some of them are a little cliched, but I think that they're true, right? Sure, we talk a lot about, you know, embracing failure and celebrating failure, at least in the entrepreneurial community. I don't think the university is really there yet, like, in terms of, like, let's, let's, let's, let's experiment, let's try things and let's figure out, you know, what doesn't work and let it go. I don't think, I think we're still, we still got a waste. Jeff York 38:24 Sorry, I'm saying awesome, while you're saying that. Sorry. This was just, I was like, that's awesome. University isn't there yet. Ethan's day of the dead dog, of the dead aloe. Ethan Decker 38:35 That was a gift from a patron. Jeff York 38:37 That's awesome. So, okay, so that's, that's kind of tough. It's tough to people that don't understand, like, the vast majority of these things are not going to work, and that's okay. Like, that's the price we have. It's, Bryn Rees 38:49 well, actually, actually, I was on the way over here, I was thinking about distillation, right, and how that works. So I was, you know, we were talking about, yeah, you know how you're a nerd when it comes to Halloween, I'm a nerd about a lot of things. And one is that, you know, I spent a lot of time in a chemistry lab doing actual distillation, right? And it's like you're separating impurities out of something that you want. And that's what we're doing in entrepreneurship, right? But in order to do that, we've got to have a process to apply, to apply the heat, right, right? And knowing that some things are not going to go forward, yeah? And that's, that's Jeff York 39:24 a much larger volume of liquid to start with, that's right, Bryn Rees 39:28 with a lot of junk in it, yeah, with a lot of things you don't want, yeah, but those Brad 39:31 successes may ease the way in the future, right? I mean, if you how many companies were you working with? Like, 10 years ago? Bryn Rees 39:39 10 years ago, we probably did about five startups a year, and that's so now about seven times faster. So it's a, it's a, it's a big change. That's awesome. Brad 39:47 I mean, so just in the VC world, that basket is going to lead to success, right? And Unknown Speaker 39:52 nothing, let's say, develops culture more than than success, right? And having one person say, you know, my my colleague, did it, I'm definitely. Going to do it. But also, I think the low hanging fruit is we've got to celebrate the successes. So I was counting up the other day in a internal meeting about how many unicorn companies have come out of the research labs at ��Ƶ Boulder, seven, really, seven unicorns, right? And like, who knows that? Nobody knows that. Brad 40:23 I didn't know that, right? That's incredible, yeah, so, so I first met Brynn, actually on a phone call before Eric and I went to the Weizmann Institute on Tel Aviv, yeah, and the whitesman had hired the Deming center to help them commercialize technology. And when I had the call with you, and I was not, it was not in person. I think it was a zoom call that I'm thinking as we went through this list. Though, in my head, you're hitting everything that I like, and I'm thinking, I like this guy, and so after that, first of all, testing it at Wiseman was a great success. We just signed another contract with him, actually, okay, but the techniques that you use are they're in commonalities with everything that we're doing, right? I mean, there is a methodology behind all this, right? That works? Unknown Speaker 41:04 Yep, actually. I mean, I think the universities in Israel are known for being some of the most mature when it comes to translating technologies and commercialization. And what we believe is our most innovative programs embark, which is a deep, deep tech startup creation program. We haven't seen anybody else do anything like that in the US, but after a few conversations with some of our advisors, we learned that Technion University had done something. I Brad 41:33 didn't know that, right? Yes, yeah, really cool. I actually mentioned all of my students somehow take a look at the portfolio at Venture Partners, because there might be something in there for you, right? I mean, everybody needs to be aware that you can search this and and go through Venture Partners with a very favorable licensing agreement and start something Jeff York 41:55 up, wow, action website. I think this because we do. I mean, what little we know of who listens to this podcast, and if you do, make sure you give it a five star ranking right now, I think so. Well, yes, until maybe tonight, because there's no pumpkin beer, and people are gonna be sorely disappointed. They will be the guy with the disappointed, the guy with the pumpkin tattoo is gonna be really upset. That's my favorite guys that's ever written to us, I was going to say that is actually, in reality, an actionable insight, especially for our alums. I think that I do know some of them listen to this, you know, coming back and being able to look at those opportunities to get into that embark program, yep, like, let's say you've gone and had some success. You've done well or or maybe not. I mean, whatever. And you're looking to really change the direction your career. You're looking to get involved in the start. I mean, this is a huge opportunity. Yeah, this is not open. I don't think it's open to just anyone, right? Well, it's Unknown Speaker 42:52 competitive, so anybody can compete, but it's got about a 10% acceptance rate right now, or maybe a little Jeff York 42:58 I just had a former student come through, and I was really excited. He made it through. He did, yeah, so that was and he's coming back after, I think, seven years. Yep, I'm really happy for him, because he was like, Oh, this is, this is really cool, yeah. So, Unknown Speaker 43:10 and, you know, I have seen some research institutions, but actually more of the federal labs that, you know, they'll put a listing of their technologies up on a website, but I think that is not going to be compelling for most people, right? And so what we're doing with embark is, you know, taking an innovation that's usually got hundreds of 1000s, if not millions of dollars of research funding behind it, right? So you're kind of, you're hitting the ground running, right? You don't need that years of R and D to generate your product, but you're also joining a really well developed ecosystem, right? You can, you can go into new venture launch. You can participate in other campus competitions and get several $100,000 in non dilutive funding. You can pitch to our venture fund, buff gold ventures participate in our startup accelerator. So you're, you're, you're joining a community, right? And a really fantastic community in Boulder, it's not just, Hey, you get some tech. Jeff York 44:04 Oh yeah. The advantage of being in Boulder too is like, I mean, yesterday, I was meeting with a current student, and you were at some brewery, and I saw two other entrepreneurs I knew, and she was trying to talk to me about this initial idea she had, and she had talked to me about and had a beer. I was like, Okay, go here. Pitch this guy on. And she actually got some really good advice and some offers to help with her mind. And the Brad 44:26 other part of Boulder that I didn't realize, which I found out this week, is this week, I had a tour of NIST. I had never been in. I'd never been well, I've driven by 1000 times, right? I'd never been in the gate. So you pull up and the guy has you open all of your doors, your hood and your trunk. They said, Go wait in this office while they check your car. It's like going to the airport, but once you get in, I Unknown Speaker 44:47 do that to you. When you go there, pretty much that's just you. Brad, yeah, it Brad 44:52 was incredible. It was truly incredible. We've been to NREL. Never Jeff York 44:57 Oh, we gotta go over to NREL. Yeah, that'll really blow your mind. Yeah, so I Brad 45:00 mean Chocolate Factory renewable, but talk about an ecosystem, though. So we have entrepreneurs, there's money, there's there's brilliance here. There are ideas, multiple Jeff York 45:10 national laboratories, pits and stems. Yes, some Brad 45:15 of this is kind of this random happening as well that has come together to build something incredible, right? Jeff York 45:21 I think so. Yeah, you know, guys, any other halloween thoughts you want to share? I mean this, I gotta say this is perhaps the least spooky episode we've ever done on Halloween. Unknown Speaker 45:31 So what are you gonna be? Jeff, well, I Jeff York 45:35 am always the same thing. I'm the storyteller because I run this blood on the clock tower game, and I run the game. And the game is the storyteller is the first person to die. Their body is found impaled on the minute hand of the clock tower. And then my ghost actually leads everyone through the rest of this. How long does this take? It takes about two and a half hours to run the game. Davis, it's pretty great, though. Anyway, well, anything you want to add on, add on Halloween wishes. Ethan, any parting thoughts? Ethan Decker 46:03 Good libations to all, Jeff York 46:05 yes, Joel Davis 46:07 Jeff, give us a good horror film recommendation. Jeff York 46:10 Oh, okay, so you know, Brad needs a horror film recommendation. This is actually not good for Brad, but if you like horror films, I would say there's one called barbarian that came out last year that's quite good and not what it seems at all. If you really want a good horror movie, in my opinion, 824, you can't go too wrong with most of their horror films. In particular, the bitch or the witch. Stylize the bitch. Emily, you seen that? Emily Iliff 46:39 It was disturbing. Jeff York 46:41 What were your thoughts on the vet? Emily, Emily Iliff 46:42 I think I saw it when I was, like, a freshman in college. Perfect. I Jeff York 46:47 showed my kids when they were, like, 12. Emily Iliff 46:48 Um, well, I watched it with my it was me and my family's the whole first time seeing it. But the main takeaway is that it's disturbing, yes, and weird, yeah. Kind of makes you want to, like, crawl out of your skin, but it's great. That's what you're going for, Jeff York 47:04 exactly, exactly. So check out the bitch. Bryn Rees 47:07 One too. Great. This one, I can't shake it. This is from like, 10 years ago. It's called the baba Duke. Oh, yeah. So this is, I can remember 24 watching this with with some friends, and one person leapt up in the middle, ran away, and we never saw her. And, and, and I think it's deep too. You know what happens? Jeff York 47:36 No, it's, I mean, that's the thing. Is, there's some commentary going on underneath, absolutely. And there is in the bitch too. I mean, I think a truly great horror movie. I mean this, this goes way back to, like the universal monster movies, or even before, but, but really, uh, George uh Romero perfected it with the the zombie movies, Dawn of the Dead, right? Having a parallel social commentary going on at the same time as the movie itself. And that makes it disturbing on a whole different level. And that's what's a great horror movie is, in my humble opinion. So hey, if you listen to the podcast, what you're gonna want to do is set all this horror aside. You're gonna want to reach out, come to Boulder before it gets snowy, and you're gonna wanna see all the murals. And what? How can I see murals in Boulder if I wanted to see I mean I can't walk! Brad 48:18 No, I think electric bikes, are the only way, right, Jeff? Jeff York 48:22 Electric bikes, because, I mean, clearly I'll be too inebriated to walk, so I have to ride an electric bike, because that's safe. If you need to do that, you want to go to jdjoyrides.com if you want to go to a place that has no pumpkin beer whatsoever, and they're very proud of it, liquid mechanics, check them out. Liquid mechanics.com Those are our two sponsors for the podcast. Maybe we'll be able to get pits and stems the sponsor eventually. There we are, but yeah, and once again, I'm Jeff York. I'm faculty director at the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado. Boulder. I Brad 48:56 am Brad Warner, and I'd like to thank both Ethan and Bryn for being here, and Emily as well. Joel, you too. So it's great to see all of you. Thank you very much, and we'll see you next time. Jeff York 49:06 Absolutely Happy Halloween, everybody. Dona L 49:10 This episode of creative distillation was recorded on the front porch of the Chautauqua mission house at the reversing the arrow conference held in Boulder in June 2024, Jen's paper challenging what we think we know, theory and evidence for questioning common beliefs about the gender gap in entrepreneurial confidence was published in June 2022, in Entrepreneurship, theory and practice. Check the show notes for a link and learn more about Jennifer Jennings on her faculty page at the University of Alberta website. We'd love to hear your feedback and ideas. Email us at CD podcast@colorado.edu Them, and please be sure to Subscribe to Creative distillation wherever you get your podcasts. The creative distillation podcast is made possible by the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado, boulders, Leeds School of Business. For more information, please visit deming.colorado.edu, that's D, E, M, I, N, G, and click the creative distillation link. Creative distillation is produced by Joel Davis at analog digital arts. Our theme music is whiskey before breakfast, performed by your humble host, Brad and Jeff. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here next week for the next round of creative distillation. You.

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Sophie Schuler's Journey in the Entrepreneurship and Empowerment Program in South Africa

Emily Iliff — Thu, 31 Oct 2024 12:00:00 +0000

Sophie Schuler's Journey in the Entrepreneurship and Empowerment Program in South Africa Emily Iliff Thu, 10/31/2024 - 06:00

Emily Iliff

Sophie Schuler’s journey into the Entrepreneurship and Empowerment in South Africa (EESA) program was more than just an opportunity to study abroad; it was a chance to dive deep into real-world challenges in a new culture. Growing up near Boulder, Colorado, Sophie’s path led her to ��Ƶ Boulder, where she pursued a career in accounting. But as her academic journey unfolded, the chance to push her skills in a global context became irresistible. Drawn by the promise of hands-on experience and inspired by the stories of a family friend, Sophie found herself on a adventure in Cape Town: one that would test her limits, broaden her perspective, and deepen her commitment to making a difference.

When she signed up, Sophie was seeking more than a typical study abroad experience. She wanted to test her skills, challenge herself, and gain hands-on experience in a setting far removed from Colorado. What she didn’t realize was that EESA would push her to her limits, providing lessons and rewards that would stay with her long after the six weeks ended.

Learning by Doing

Unlike traditional study abroad programs that emphasize lectures and sightseeing, EESA was all about action. In the mornings, Sophie and her peers would attend lectures covering various aspects of business, including marketing, finance, accounting, and operations. These sessions weren’t formal classes, but discussions that prepared them for the day’s real challenge: consulting.

Each participant was paired with local entrepreneurs from Cape Town’s townships, tackling real business problems alongside them. “We had to take what we learned in lectures and apply it directly to help our clients,” Sophie shared. This hands-on approach took learning beyond theory, as the team members identified clients' needs, devised strategies, and implemented solutions, covering everything from setting up accounting systems to improving sales processes.

Challenges and Growth in Cape Town

One of Sophie’s most rewarding projects was developing a simple yet effective accounting system for her clients, helping them better manage cash flow and track expenses. Although her accounting knowledge was more advanced than her clients required, going back to basics and seeing her clients’ businesses stabilize because of her efforts was fulfilling. Additionally, she took on a new role in sales, an area where she had limited experience, but which ultimately became one of her favorite aspects of the program.

The pace of the program was relentless, and Sophie often felt the pressure to meet her clients’ expectations within the tight six-week timeframe. “It was fast-paced, with so much to accomplish,” she recalls. Yet the intensity only enhanced her focus and commitment, teaching her the importance of being fully present in every moment, whether in a client meeting or a group project.

More Than Work: A Cultural Experience in South Africa

Even though EESA was a work-intensive program, Sophie and her cohort had time to explore South Africa’s rich culture and stunning landscapes. The “work hard, play hard” mentality allowed her to experience adventures like hiking Cape Town’s iconic Table Mountain, joining tours of local wineries, and even cage-diving with sharks. These moments provided a much-needed balance to the rigorous schedule, helping the group bond and recharge before diving back into their consulting work.

For Sophie, one of the most inspiring parts of her experience was witnessing the resilience and resourcefulness of South African entrepreneurs. Many of her clients came from communities with limited resources, yet their drive to support their families and uplift their communities was powerful. Sophie was struck by the sense of solidarity and shared purpose she observed in the townships, where entrepreneurs were passionate about their craft, from small-scale manufacturing to unique culinary offerings.

“I gained so much respect for entrepreneurship,” Sophie reflected. “The opportunity to start a business is something we often take for granted in the U.S. In Cape Town, I saw how important it could be for individuals and communities alike.” Working alongside these entrepreneurs gave Sophie a renewed appreciation for her own skills and a deeper understanding of the role of entrepreneurship in economic empowerment.

A Lasting Impact: Sophie’s Advice to Future Participants

At the program’s closing ceremony, Sophie was asked to share a few words. She spoke about the deep connections she had formed, both with her team and her clients. “It’s the relationships,” she said, “that make this experience unforgettable. You’re in the trenches with people who share a common goal, and that brings you closer in ways you wouldn’t expect.”

Her advice to future EESA participants is simple: take the leap, even if you’re unsure of your skills. EESA’s team approach ensures that everyone has something valuable to contribute.

“Even if you don’t feel super confident in a certain area, there’s always room to grow and opportunities to lean on each other.”

Looking Ahead: How EESA Shaped Sophie’s Outlook

Though Sophie currently envisions a future in the corporate world, her time in EESA has sparked an openness to entrepreneurship she hadn’t previously considered. While starting her own business may not be an immediate goal, she knows that the skills and perspectives she gained in South Africa have given her a solid foundation should she choose that path someday.

In the end, EESA was more than just an academic program; it was a transformative journey that redefined how Sophie approaches challenges, relationships, and her own potential. The experience solidified her commitment to staying present and connected, a lesson she’s carried with her back to ��Ƶ Boulder and into her future endeavors.

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Rob Mossman: Navigating Challenges, Pivoting Strategies, and Building Business Success

Emily Iliff — Thu, 24 Oct 2024 12:00:00 +0000

Rob Mossman: Navigating Challenges, Pivoting Strategies, and Building Business Success Emily Iliff Thu, 10/24/2024 - 06:00

Emily Iliff

Rob Mossman’s story is one of adaptability, resilience, and entrepreneurial evolution. Robs journey began at ��Ƶ Boulder, where his decision to attend was driven by both practicality and financial necessity. As a Colorado native from Evergreen, Rob chose Leeds School of Business for its reputation and affordability, enrolling as a finance major. However, the challenges of finance classes soon led him to reconsider his path, prompting a switch to the art of marketing. Later, he added tourism management as a second major, which not only broadened his academic background but also allowed him to gain credit for a job he took with HEAD Ski. This role provided Rob with his first taste of the business world, sparking his entrepreneurial drive and shaping his early understanding of how businesses operate. Through these experiences, Rob began to lay the foundation for his future as a business leader.

Despite initially avoiding finance in college, Rob's career eventually brought him back to the world of numbers. As an entrepreneur and CEO, he realized that understanding financials is critical to running a successful business. Reflecting on this full-circle moment, he jokes that while he ran from finance classes in college, he now relies heavily on the financial skills he once found difficult. His key advice to entrepreneurs is to never underestimate the importance of financial acumen. He stresses that a deep understanding of cash flow, revenue, and margins is essential for any entrepreneur, as running out of money is the quickest way for a business to fail. Regardless of the industry, numbers are at the heart of business success.

Finding the Right Fit

Rob’s first major venture into entrepreneurship came from his passion for cycling. Believing that working in an industry he loved would bring him fulfillment, he entered the bicycle business. However, he quickly learned that loving a product doesn’t necessarily translate into business success. His experience in the bicycle industry taught him that it’s not about the product itself, but about the business model and value proposition. Rob realized that successful businesses offer something of value beyond just a low price. Whether selling bicycles or hospital scrubs, the key is to differentiate the product and create a strong value proposition that resonates with customers. This lesson became a guiding principle for Rob as he ventured into new industries.

From 2012 to 2018, Rob led an access control company, which was eventually sold in 2018. After the sale, he took a year off, using the time to reflect on what his next steps would be. During this period, he embarked on a motorcycle trip to Alaska and back, giving himself ample time to think about his future. Rob realized that instead of pursuing turnaround ventures, he wanted to buy and scale a business. To achieve this, he engaged in a search fund model, a process typically undertaken by high-performing MBA graduates, where investors subsidize an entrepreneur’s income during the search for a business to acquire. In an uncommon move, he partnered with a private equity group that was interested in working with experienced CEOs. After two years of searching, they acquired Piranha Brands in December 2020, an Amazon-centric business that was the largest reseller of hospital scrubs on the platform.

Initially, Rob and his team saw the potential to grow Piranha Brands by launching private label products and expanding e-commerce channels. However, they quickly learned the importance of having multiple growth strategies, as the original Amazon-focused value proposition eroded over time. Adapting to these changes, the company shifted its business model, transforming into a software-driven enterprise that now manages uniform programs directly for healthcare institutions. Today, Piranha Brands operates several divisions, including Topstitch, a healthcare uniform program, a wholesale business that supplies scrubs to promotional product salespeople, and a few retail stores. The company's success lies in its ability to differentiate itself through software, a common thread across all its business units. Rob’s entrepreneurial journey showcases the power of adaptability and the importance of having diverse paths for growth

Turning Challenges into Opportunities

As Piranha Brands transitioned into a software-driven enterprise, Rob found that risk and reward must always be carefully balanced. He believes that every business decision inherently carries risk, and the key lies in understanding how much risk you can afford to take based on the strength of your balance sheet. Businesses with steady revenue and cash flow, like his current ventures, allow for more meaningful bets compared to startups, where risk tolerance is lower. He stresses the importance of being prepared for both success and setbacks, always conducting thorough sensitivity analyses to evaluate potential outcomes. Rob shares a simple yet powerful principle: “If you can't make payroll, you're done.” He says that protecting cash flow, not just revenue, is the most critical factor in ensuring a business's survival.

Throughout his entrepreneurial journey, Rob has distilled some invaluable lessons. One of his most important takeaways is that "momentum cures mistakes." For Rob, the worst thing an entrepreneur can do is stop. He advises against seeking perfection at the expense of progress, underscoring the importance of continuous forward motion in business. Another pivotal decision he’s made as a business owner is to do everything possible to keep great people while quickly parting ways with those who are not a good fit. He explains that truly exceptional employees are not driven solely by money—they value empowerment, recognition, and support. By creating a culture that nurtures and retains these individuals, he has built a team that drives his businesses forward.

Rob believes in fostering a performance culture, one that aligns every employee with the company’s vision and goals. To build such a culture, communication is paramount. He explains that when everyone understands the direction the company is headed and feels empowered to contribute, the organization thrives. Rob’s leadership style focuses on defining "who we are" rather than prescribing what to do. This, combined with consistent communication, builds a proactive, high-performance team that can achieve great things together.

When asked about entrepreneurship, Rob answers a concise definition: "the willingness to fix something that's broken or create something that doesn't exist." This simple yet profound view encapsulates his approach to business- whether starting a new venture, acquiring a company, or growing a team, Rob is driven by the desire to solve problems and create value. His journey, from finance struggles at ��Ƶ Boulder to leading multiple successful businesses, is evidence to the power of resilience, adaptability, and thoughtful leadership. As Rob continues to lead Piranha Brands, his guiding principles and entrepreneurial insights will undoubtedly inspire the next generation of business leaders.

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Creative Distillation Episode 69 - Reversing the Arrow conference with Jennifer & Dev Jennings

Emily Iliff — Thu, 17 Oct 2024 19:16:40 +0000

Creative Distillation Episode 69 - Reversing the Arrow conference with Jennifer & Dev Jennings Emily Iliff Thu, 10/17/2024 - 13:16

Emily Iliff

Recorded at the Reversing the Arrow conference, Jeff York and Brad Werner from ��Ƶ Boulder’s Leeds School of Business sit down with professors Jennifer and Dev Jennings from the University of Alberta, who happen to be the first married couple to appear on the show. Together, they dive into topics like gender roles in business partnerships and Jennifer’s fascinating research on the gender gap in entrepreneurial confidence.

The conversation isn’t all academic, there’s plenty of lighthearted banter, including Prosecco tasting and the surprise introduction of "Deviate Sparkle," a glitter-infused vodka drink. This episode offers more than just insights into research, it explores the dynamics of balancing work and family life, teaching entrepreneurship with a focus on feedback, and the broader implications of accurate versus overconfidence in business. Whether you’re an educator, entrepreneur, or just curious about how gender and confidence impact venture success, this episode is packed with valuable takeaways.

To listen, please click here.

Transcription

Dona L 0:07 Welcome to another episode of creative distillation. Your host, Jeff and Brad from the University of Colorado, Boulder's Leeds School of Business, discuss entrepreneurship research while enjoying fine craft beverages. Here's another episode from the reversing the arrow conference held at Boulder's beautiful Chautauqua Park in June 2024 this time Brad and Jeff speak with Jennifer and Dev Jennings. Both are professors in the department of strategy, entrepreneurship and Management at the University of Alberta School of Business. They also happen to be the first married couple to appear on creative distillation while enjoying a crisp Prosecco on the porch of the Chautauqua mission house. Jen and Dev talk about a paper they've co written about how starting a business with one's romantic partner tends to lead to stereotypical gender roles translating from the marriage into the business, requiring a special kind of work life balancing to truly succeed. Then Jen tells us about her recent paper examining the gender gap in entrepreneurial self efficacy, and how that plays out in terms of investor confidence, the ability to learn and adapt, and ultimately, a venture's success. The results may surprise you, all of that and more in this episode of creative distillation, enjoy and cheers. Jeff York 1:51 Welcome to Creative distillation, where we distill entrepreneurship research into actionable insights. I am Jeff York, your host, with my co host, Brad 1:59 Brad Warner and Jeff, this is really an exciting day. This Jeff York 2:03 is an exciting day. We are. We are in the first day of reversing the arrow. Brad, have you ever reversed an arrow? I've never reversed an arrow, but I'm actually trying in Wisconsin. Brad 2:14 I was never a bow I was never a bow hunter. No Jeff York 2:17 No When Buzz is bow hunters. Sometimes I think reversing arrow is a really bad thing. If you want to know about reversing the arrow, you'll have to rewind in time and go find the one that says Robert Eberhart. That's the most academic sounding name of anyone. I mean, you know, if you know Bob, you know, and if you know Bob, you know, you know he is and he explains what the heck reversing the arrow is. But we're really excited to be here. We're on the beautiful front porch at the Chautauqua. Gosh, what is the Chautauqua? The mission house at the Chautauqua. Thank you. Producer Joel and the Chautauqua is this amazing place in Boulder, Colorado that we also talked about with Bob in the previous episodes. We're not gonna talk about any more than to say it's a lovely day and we've got some guests. We have two faculty members joining us, two professors. First Brad 3:00 of all, Jeff, just walking before we get to our Okay, um, it's amazing how all these folks know you. I walk in, I'm in this group of, I don't know these folks, and they're all looking at you, and I think that that's gonna make my days. I think that they're gonna be a lot of fun things that are you were amazed Jeff York 3:17 by that the last time I was just, like, making all this up, and, like, nobody actually knew who I was. No, Brad 3:22 I think that there are like 50 of you in the world, yeah. And every once in a while you all get together. That is Jeff York 3:27 kind of close, yeah. So who do we have today? Okay, so we have two professors from University of Alberta, the University of Alberta, School of Business. I get that, right, guys, yes. All right, good. There we go. Really. Really, really on fire. Here, the first person introduces Professor Jennifer Jennings, she's professor in the Department of strategy, entrepreneurship and management, as well as Professor dev Jennings, who is also in the department of strategy, entrepreneurship and Brad 3:56 management. Okay, so this leads to my first question. No, this is, this is the first husband and wife team, I believe we've ever had on Jeff, we Jeff York 4:07 have never has been a wife team. So how does that work? Brad 4:11 I mean, I'm just thinking, I'm thinking Jeff York 4:14 people love each other. Brad 4:15 I understand, I understand that part, but I'm thinking about the working together component of this right as an entrepreneur, I've seen many ventures crash and burn with partners, working as partners, and so is it the same way in academia? Just tell us a little bit of the backstory and how you got here. Dev Jennings 4:31 Well, you might not get the same answer from me as from Jennifer, Jennifer Jennings 4:36 but I think that hits it on the nail on the head right there. I'm waiting for mine, but that's okay. Jeff York 4:48 So this is a change request, yeah. So we're doing a little bit of a different format this week, as we're reversing the arrow and the Global Entrepreneurship and Innovation Research Conference doing these episodes. There's only so many brewers into. Stillers and bartenders we can call in favors from. So getting them to come and, like, just serve their beer to like, three or four people, even if one of them's Brad, tends to be difficult to have happen. So we're just bringing beverages that people ask for, and Jen requested Prosecco, which I know absolutely nothing about, Brad 5:17 so I do so yes. So these folks don't know that I live in the south of France during the summer, and I will talk about rose when Bob gets here. But Prosecco is actually fermented in stainless steel barrels. And where's this from products of Italy? I Jennifer Jennings 5:35 was gonna say my understanding is that this is the Italian champagne, yeah, Brad 5:39 but the French would never say that this is a champagne they would say they're not worthy of this. Okay, so, Jeff York 5:47 oh, thank you. They would say so. The French would say the Italians are not worthy. No, they're Brad 5:51 saying the French are very, very protective of their wines and their wine regions, and they don't believe that anyone, for the most part, makes anything better than they do. Well, sure, right? And but Prosecco was something that's really taken off in the US and Canada as well, I guess. Jeff York 6:06 I've tried to find one made Colorado, and they don't exist. Jennifer Jennings 6:10 Cheers. Thank you. Jeff York 6:14 Cheers, man. Cheers. All right, so we all love you. This is actually nice creative distillation. First, we have never drank wine on creative distillation. Oh, and 60 some odd episodes, wow, never have drank wine. It's good. Well, no, we don't have wine. We had Snoop Dogg's prison wine in California. No, no, I do remember buying it though I was very excited. Joel. Joel thought it was a good idea. And so Wait, I see someone over there in the corner. Wait, what's this? Oh, my God. Oh yeah. Hey. All right, come here. Guest, friend of the pod, Professor, Beth Emery from University of Kansas. What are you doing here? Beth? And what have you come to tell us about? Beth Embree 6:56 Since it's June, I was wondering if you got any sparkle from DB eight. Sparkle Jeff York 7:00 from DV eight. What's that? Beth Embree 7:03 Apparently, it's Dev Jennings 7:03 got a unicorn, fabulous Beth Embree 7:06 that's vodka based and fruit punch with edible glitter inside that you should shake up before you serve. Jeff York 7:12 Well, let's shake it and see what happens. Are you serious? Dev Jennings 7:15 I see the unicorn If you drink this, one of Beth Embree 7:21 the best distilleries, Jeff York 7:23 the home of our very first episode. I believe, Beth, are you planning to offer this to other people during the podcast this week? Busting it right open? Wow, holy cow. Brad 7:35 It has a brown bag shaped bottle. It Jeff York 7:37 might need ice, so I didn't have time to chill it, but I think it's got enough alcohol in it to but I'd be Beth Embree 7:43 curious if someone else wants to try it with me. So deviate, and this is from the Jeff York 7:47 back. It says there, we love deviate, great distillery here in Boulder. They've really upped their branding since we were visiting them. So deviate from the norm. That was their motto then, right? But now they're just like deviate is a queer, kinky and diverse distillery dedicated to making this world a little freakier. And this bottle says made with real fruit, peach, blueberry, pineapple, strawberry and cranberry, as well as eatable glitter. So describe what this looks like, Brad, Brad 8:14 it looks like a teenager's bottle. Dev Jennings 8:21 It's true. Yes, folks. I mean, sparkly is your phone, my Brad 8:24 love and it has a unicorn on the bottle, my granddaughter would love Jeff York 8:27 that. Oh, god, okay, so, so in the glass, this presents as sparkles and pink liquid. Oh, Jennifer Jennings 8:42 my, it looks a little intergalactic. Yes, Jeff York 8:46 that's its own. I think you see intergalactic things you drink too much. Dev Jennings 8:49 Yeah, it's true. Look that is a unicorn. Jeff York 8:52 Wow. That is, I actually taste all those fruits, but not I can't tell Beth Embree 8:57 my part. Don't need to tell you the ones that you're supposed to be tasting. Sure Jeff York 9:01 taste bath and famous on sparkle. What I learned Beth Embree 9:04 when I was researching it is apparently you're supposed to be able to taste cardamon, juniper, blood orange, lavender, coriander, Angelica, rosemary and Cuban peppers. Jeff York 9:18 The Cuban peppers is really strong. I give it a thumbs up. If you're looking for an alcoholic fruit punch full of glitter, go find deviate sparkle. Anyway, back to the Prosecco. This is delicious. The Prosecco Brad 9:29 is great, yes, so tell us about your love for Prosecco. Or, Jennifer Jennings 9:33 how did Yes? How did I develop this? Well, it was imported from one of our new colleagues, Christopher Steele, who was quite a connoisseur of all things good to eat and good to drink. So he introduced it to us, and I haven't gone back since. So Brad 9:50 we can find battles of prosesco. And you're sitting in your home right now, yeah, Jeff York 9:54 so this is what my 17 year old daughter researching Prosecco on the iPhone on the way the liquor store suggested. Nice. There's a shout out for you. Brad 10:01 So how do we get the other thing, though, what is that? Things like, Jeff York 10:05 just showed up and then she absconded away. I'm starting Brad 10:09 to, like, link the conferences with the UCLA and that blue drink that we had, and this, yeah, brainwashed break this. So Jeff York 10:16 this is like, this is like, the brainwash of but this is actually pretty good. I think. What'd you think? Deb, you tasted the deviate, Dev Jennings 10:23 I think better brainwashed than mouthwash. It's good. I mean, shake me, Jeff York 10:30 it's a totally unique beverage. Yeah, Brad 10:32 shake me actually is awesome. Jeff York 10:33 All right. So good. Anything else you guys want to tell us about Prosecco? I gave you the extent my knowledge is what my daughter found out. Well, Dev Jennings 10:40 yeah, but also we found trying them. Now, quite a few that the Italian is quite distinctive, right? I mean, you know, when you've had ones, we've tried those in California. We tried French ones. We've tried some Spanish version. We have tried different Prosecco as well. Have Jennifer Jennings 10:56 we okay? Yes, I just thought they were always made in Italy. No, no, Dev Jennings 11:01 you're telling me go to the go and get the Italian one, right? Brad 11:07 I look at this like a session wine, where you can actually sit out on a hot day and yeah, per second, Jennifer Jennings 11:11 right on, on a covered Yes, this Brad 11:13 is perfect, right? Yeah, yep. I like it, yeah. Jeff York 11:17 I like it too. It's well, very well suited summer beverage. Yes. So we, since we had two people today, we thought we were going to talk about two different papers. But, you know, since you guys, oh, we never answered Brad's question, yes, I'm sorry. Well, I Jennifer Jennings 11:29 think you got a little bit of a sneak preview there. Did you see how chivalrous he was? Yeah, he somebody took out the Prosecco. He immediately said, Oh, let me serve that to Jennifer, right? And he poured my drink and everything. So I think that goes a long way okay, in the relationship, yeah, and Tito kind of transfers over to actually co authoring together as well. Brad 11:53 So are we talking about co authored paper here today? Jennifer Jennings 11:55 No, not today, no, but Dev Jennings 11:57 we've done on whether to go into business with your partner. Brad 12:00 No No kidding, we've Dev Jennings 12:01 written a paper on that. Jennifer Jennings 12:02 We've done that. Brad 12:03 What was the result? Is there a takeaway? Just quickly, we Dev Jennings 12:06 actually found it was pretty good for both with those data, but the woman always had more of a burden. Jennifer Jennings 12:11 Yes, that's true. Yeah, yeah. That one, yeah. And related, research has shown that, typically, in that sort of situation, sadly, they fall into, you know, historically, you know, stereotypical gendered roles, so it's typically the man in the relationship who gets to be the top dog, Dev Jennings 12:31 right? Try to split the housework and everything like that we do in our own relationship, yeah, and the kids stuff. So, yeah, but it's never equal. Jeff York 12:40 Well, yeah, it's really hard because it's a fuzzy line, and it's always hard to figure out who did what. And, you know, it's just, I think that's a pretty good, actual insight already here. Brad, like the idea that, like starting a business with your your partner, a lot of those stereotypical gender roles that we know actually play out, usually in marriage, and are really hard to resist over both sides, also translate into the business. Am I getting it right? Jennifer Jennings 13:07 Typically? That's yeah, what the research shows, yeah, and does Jeff York 13:10 that interfere with, like, the ability for the business to be successful, or the couples to be successful? Or does it, is it just sort of like an unfair outcome? Or what'd you guys think from the research, like Jennifer Jennings 13:19 when I was way back as a doctoral student, collecting data in the Greater Vancouver area, going out around, you know, and talking to folks. And every time I discovered that it was actually a white wife team, I kind of deviated referring to our sparkle drink here, no deviated from the script. The and kind of, and I was just really intrigued, like, Okay, your husband, wife team, how's your marriage doing? Yeah, right, as a result of being in business together. And I remember keeping track, and, you know, we haven't published this or anything, but I remember it was half and half, so half of those couples, you know, were kind of on their way to divorce, or they were still in business, but, like, kind of, but divorced, believe it or not, and then the other half were like, Oh, this is the most amazing thing to be doing as a married couple. And I think that's how Devin I feel about actually being married, academics, like, it's really amazing when it works, right? It's great, right? Like, it's either the best of times or the Dev Jennings 14:20 worst of times, right? Jennifer Jennings 14:24 Yeah, Dev Jennings 14:25 when paper isn't going it doesn't really go right, and it does. It's awesome. Jeff York 14:31 oh yeah, I can only imagine. It's like, really nice having your spouse understand the challenges and the ups and downs, like, of because I mean a lot this whole podcast now, Brad and I are not romantically entangled, but just to clarify, but a lot of this has been me explaining to him and showing him, like other people, some of the challenges actually doing this work, because as an outsider, you look at and you're like, Oh, you wrote a paper. All right, you published it. Well, big deal. Like. You know, 30 page paper, would that take, like, a week or something? And, you know, it's like Brad 15:04 10 years. We've had people 10 years that you now, know. Jeff York 15:09 So it's, I think, is that, that helpful aspect of it, understanding each other? Oh, absolutely, Jennifer Jennings 15:14 it's really great. I mean, if we are working on a paper together, or, you know, a project, or, of course, or whatever. I mean. Can you imagine waking up in the morning and your husband, your partner, has served you breakfast? And not only that, you get to talk about, yeah, right? And then beyond that, exactly, then you get to spend breakfast talking about, like the next section of your paper, right? Oh god, you know what cool analysis you're gonna do next. Sounds like misery. This is academic heaven. Dev Jennings 15:52 Professors. We do have to draw a line now, right? We just draw a line. Oh, yeah. Like when we go on our walk and stuff, we like, Okay, we need to be in the moment. Yeah, sometimes, you know, right? Yeah. Otherwise, just be all this paper that all cerebral. What's going on? Yeah, side of what life is about when you have kids to their demands, but now that the kids are grown, now that you know, they finished university, all of them. It's different too, right? In a way, we have all our co authors who we kind of look after interesting. It's not just about a different family sort of thing. It's a different Yeah, Jeff York 16:31 because you guys both have doctoral students, you're Jennifer Jennings 16:34 trying to get tenure, Dev Jennings 16:36 these things matter. Yeah? No, Jeff York 16:38 it does. It really is. It's, I never quite got that until, like, you start, I don't think you get as a doctoral student, like you can. I just think, like, well, you know, this person's being so nice to me, that's cool, but like, you don't realize, like, the burden you're putting on the person. Because it's like, it's like, watching your kid play a sport or something, right? You're just like, but, yeah, it's hard. I mean, and you feel accountability for taking care of these people and getting them through and trying to help them and and they don't know as much about it, and they is an apprenticeship model. So you know, this is just how it goes, right? All right. Well, cool, let's, let's dive into one of your papers. Jim, so this was that right, just came out in etmp, entrepreneurship, theory and practice, challenging what we think we know, theory and evidence for questioning common beliefs about the gender gap in entrepreneurial confidence to 2023, volume, 47 issue two. Brad 17:29 Okay, so I'll pay the 47.50 No, I know I'm just teasing Jennifer Jennings 17:34 I think it's open access. Jeff York 17:42 Oh, good. This is the new thing. You can like, pay extra to make your paper open access, to avoid the paywall that you're talking about a lot of times. Maybe your institution will pay for that. Maybe you just pay for it. I know people have paid it out of pocket just because I thought it was the right thing to do. So this paper is also with Zahid Rahman, who and please correct me if I'm mispronouncing any names at the Dillon School of Business at University of Lethbridge, and also with Diana Dempsey, who is at the School of Business at McEwen University in Edmonton, Alberta. Jennifer Jennings 18:12 Yeah. So three, three Alberta Canadians. They're co authoring this one, the Canadian boss. Yeah, watch out. So Brad 18:21 you go out to dinner one night and say, Hey, folks, let's do a paper together. How does this collaboration even begin? Oh, Jennifer Jennings 18:27 and this one, Brad, oh, well, actually, it relates to our prior conversation when we were talking about the doctoral students, right? Really. Okay, so these two were both prior doctoral students of mine, or at least I was, you know, on their committee, or at least their instructor that sort of, yeah. So there Brad 18:41 was a late a relationship, some somewhat prior Jennifer Jennings 18:44 relationship, and not only that, at the time of writing this, both of them were early stage so in their career. So Zahid had just landed a job, and so he's under pressure to get tenure. Diana was a little bit further along, also under pressure to get tenure. So it was one of those situations there which I love. Yeah, I really love, like, you know, in those sort of collaborations, no offense, Jeff York 19:06 gotta get Dev through. Yes. Now that would be rough, like, if you were co authoring with your spouse and love you was going up for tenure. Well, we were in Jennifer Jennings 19:21 that situation. Yeah, sure. Like, Jeff York 19:22 they'll off your papers. It's just fascinating. Like, was Yeah, so was that? Like, I mean, how was that, like, was it because you're at the same school at the time? And, like, right? It's like, even harder. Like, what if you don't get it and you've got to move? And, I mean, that's, yeah, that's that sounds very from Dev Jennings 19:39 UBC to Alberta. Okay, so we could be together. I mean, we were together and, oh, okay, we would go Jeff York 19:45 together, right? Yeah? Oh, awesome. Okay, so you guys were already pretty committed Dev Jennings 19:49 to being together. This is, like the love, yeah. We were pretty committed to being together regardless of which, yeah, regardless Brad 19:57 we're hanging out guys, yeah, yeah, right, Jeff York 19:58 yeah. Well. Course, I mean, but that's just, I just was thinking like that be on top of a stressful situation even that much more maybe, although I guess not. If you're just committed, you're like, well, doesn't really matter, Dev Jennings 20:10 right? Yeah, still, it wasn't easy. Yeah, okay, Jeff York 20:15 if the case is so strong, it's like, let's just go with the paper. Jeff, get back to so these are former doctoral students, former doctoral Jennifer Jennings 20:25 students, and now, yeah, in their first jobs, trying to get tenure. And I think I might have brought the idea to them. I really can't recall, okay, but what we were really intrigued with was really, there is quite a large body of evidence out there, like other research that you might have had to pay a lot of money to read if you were to university story. And what that research was showing was that when you're looking at studies of entrepreneurial self confidence, right, or entrepreneurial self efficacy, ese, okay, for short, what you find is that women tend to exhibit a lower level of ese than men, so they tend to be less confident, on average, in their entrepreneurial ability than men. And this is so the research you're showing in many countries around the world, data, it emerges even really early, like in adolescence. This is showing up adolescents, university students, showing up within older like adults beyond University, even showing up amongst entrepreneurs themselves. Brad 21:31 I see it all the time. Yeah, the first book that I have anybody that I work with Read is called creative confidence by the Kelly brothers, and it's, it's, I don't know if you've heard of this, but before, but it's great, and I think it helps people to recognize the things that you were just mentioning, right? Because a lot of times, people don't even know that that's happening within them. And I think that that's, I think it's a great insight, yeah. Jennifer Jennings 21:54 So we weren't so much upset or whatever with these findings. Of course, these are just the findings. These are the facts. What we were sort of annoyed with, perhaps that's a bit too strong of a word, but I'm going to use it anyway, was how that sort of fact was being portrayed. Okay? And so how that fact tends to get portrayed is that, because women have lower entrepreneurial self confidence than men, therefore women are under confident in their entrepreneurial ability. You see that slight Jeff York 22:31 little shift? Yeah, so one is just like a finding of like there is this difference between gender that we find. The other is a critical assessment that there's something wrong, wrong with women Brad 22:44 under right, but under confident might be a good thing sometimes, right? Jennifer Jennings 22:48 Absolutely. And that's also what annoyed us was, well, first of all, Jeff, what you picked on, like, Hold on here, that's kind of, I think, under knowing what you just said, there is kind of presuming that the men are, first of all, the appropriate yardstick, and that the men have the appropriate level of entrepreneurial competence, that there's nothing wrong with men's ESC right. Hold on. Maybe there is right. Maybe the men, on average, are over covid. So if women are falling short, then perhaps, perhaps women actually have an accurate level, a more accurate level, sure understanding of where their real entrepreneurial ability lies. And actually, it's the men who are overconfident. But there's that tendency always, right, especially in entrepreneurship, because it's such a stereotypically masculine field to think, ah, you know, whatever the guys are doing, that's the appropriate yardstick, right? To measure the women it gets. So there was that that we were kind of a bit perturbed, a bit Sure, but we were also perturbed about what you're saying over there, Brad, is that, well, hold on, maybe actually exhibiting an accurate level of entrepreneurial confidence? Maybe this is Brad 23:56 a good thing, right? Where is the baseline? Where's the accurate baseline? I should say, right, yeah. Jennifer Jennings 23:59 Maybe, you know, if overconfidence, okay, that might be good to give you enough hooch spa, is that the word I can never say that word to get you started, like, you know, okay, I'm gonna go and launch this thing. Okay, yeah, overconfidence might be good for that, but maybe beyond startup, having an accurate level is better for your long term survival. So kind of for both of those reasons. That's why we were a little bit annoyed about the typical portrayal and the associated recommendations that went along with Jeff York 24:34 that. Yeah, because you could sing that that leads to all sorts of bad outcomes and teaching and coaching accelerator program, and you're like saying, Well, we know that women are under confident, quote, unquote, therefore you know they're not being we need to boost them up and make them more confident. That's gonna make people believe in it more. And I'm gonna coach these people to do this and and given we know from research, the preponderance of coaches and people that are running these programs. And investors and professors as well are male, right? They're gonna be like, buying into that probably even more quickly, because it's like, oh yeah, of course, my gender is at the proper level of confidence, right? Jennifer Jennings 25:11 Absolutely. And that is bang on like. So the common, you know, implication after portraying the women as underconfident is exactly that, okay, so then the advice goes out to the practitioners, the accelerators, these sort of things. It goes out to the policymakers. Hey, you know what we've got to fix women. They have this problem. They are deficient, right? They've got this problem that needs fixing, and so we need to put together these programs or these policy initiatives, whatever, right, that are mainly focused on fixing women and bumping up their entrepreneurial confidence. But does that Brad 25:47 really anyone's listening, right? I mean, to me, there's a deafness involved here. Yeah, right, that first of all, over when I think about overconfident entrepreneurs, I think my alarms go off that this is really dangerous, because, first of all, I know how hard it is. I think we all know how hard it is to be successful, and sometimes overconfidence leads to uncoachability, right? Jennifer Jennings 26:10 Absolutely. And that's what one of our when we looked at like the the second part of our sorry was, well, the first was, part was, you know, okay, let's see whether this is really the case, right? Whether the men are overconfident, where the women are actually, accurately confident, rather than under confident. That was kind of the first part. And then the second part of both of our studies was around, okay, so what does it make it? Does it have behavioral implications? Yes, and you hit on one of the first ones that we looked at, which was, okay, these people with these different levels of confidence. Is that associated with their likelihood of asking for information, knowledge about, Hey, how did I do actually on that task? And if they didn't do well, are they then likely to go off? And if there's an opportunity for them to find out how they could have done better, will they actually say yes to that opportunity. And what we found, I think, exactly with, in line with what you're saying, Brad, is the overconfident folks, men or women, right? The overconfident folks, when there was an opportunity there to learn further about how they did and how they could have done better, guess what did they take it? Right? No, no. Right. But the accurate confident, accurately, confident, and the under confident folks, yeah, yes. I want to know more, Brad 27:24 right? Actually, see it all the time in practice where, and this is a generalization, but so I don't mean to overgeneralize, but the men come in and they say, Oh my God, here, this is my venture. I'm going to change the world. I know I can do it. And whatever you have to say, it doesn't freaking matter, because I know I'm going to do it, yes. And the women come in and they think this is a really interesting process. I'm not sure if I fit here, right. I mean, right, this, this acceptance. And then they they actually do the correct research, or understand what problem they're solving, and go through the the process, and they surprise themselves that, oh my god, I'm now a CEO. And they find that really surprising. Once they embrace that, though I see kind of this life changing event happen in their head, and then they're off to the races, yeah, Jennifer Jennings 28:10 and now that they've done the research initially, because perhaps they were a little uncertain, but they've done that research, and so that brings their ability level up. So now they are portraying right, like, the more accurate level of Brad 28:25 crime. But I'm also thinking about VC success with women entrepreneurs. Do you have some data for that? Not Jennifer Jennings 28:32 on this particular city, but like, yeah, I can tell a little bit about kind of the other outcome variables, if you want. So above and beyond, like whether they were likely to, you know, follow through on an opportunity to learn more. So what else did we look at? So we looked at like, we gave them scenarios, like as if they were an entrepreneur, yes, and let's say there was, you're getting feedback on your initial product idea, for example, and things aren't looking so good now, right? You're getting some customer feedback. I welcome to the world, right? Yeah, exactly, right. And so what are Jeff York 29:06 shows these customers don't know what they're talking about. I'm an engineer. I mean, Brad 29:13 10 times a day, right? Oh, my God, all day, every day. Jennifer Jennings 29:19 Yeah, we see it so exciting to hear that like this, academic research is resonating those of you you know who are on the street, right? And so exactly what we found there is that the overconfident, they get the feedback and doesn't matter, they don't pay attention it, they continue to plug more money in, right? So escalation of commitment to what now appears to be not so good idea, right? So escalation of commitment, even prior to Yeah, right, even prior to that, the overconfident ones were more likely to start up their venture in a industry context that was totally unfamiliar to them. Of course, so they didn't have experience in it, and they hadn't done that research that you were talking about Brad. And they were not only doing that, they were going in with a ultra innovative, high risk product. These are those sort of statistically significant and Brad 30:15 the more overconfidence you are, and combine that with very, very bright people, leads to disaster? Yes, I mean, like big disaster. Jennifer Jennings 30:22 Well, I'm really kind of happy to hear that, because, of course, our study couldn't show that we were just dealing with scenarios. What would you do if you were in the situation? And that's certainly a limitation of it. We didn't have the actual behaviors, right? So it's really validating for me, Jeff York 30:36 experiments or survey. Jennifer Jennings 30:39 It was a mix that one one study was a lab experiment at a university, and the other study was in Canada, and then the second study was online surveys with general population the UK and US, and that was more scenario based, yeah, in both cases, though, they were given an actual like Entrepreneurship related task to do first, right, to assess, remember, because we got together talking about, yeah, so in the the lab study, the students were they had to do a task around sorting criteria that could be used to evaluate an entrepreneurial opportunity into, okay, are these actual criteria that you think VCs use versus not, okay, right? And so kind of assessing, really, their entrepreneurial opportunity knowledge, right? Jeff York 31:30 Acumen? Jennifer Jennings 31:30 Yeah, exactly that was in the one the online study in the US and the UK with the general population. That one was a business idea generation task, interesting. So they were given, you know, a technological innovation. And now, hey, go up, come up with as many ideas you can, and then we had coders rate those very cool, yeah. I mean, those are two Jeff York 31:51 very generalizable, empirically generalizable samples, because the way you're doing that much more so than a lot of other methods would well, to me, at least those kinds of things tend to lead to the insights where you're like, okay, yeah, that probably does apply in almost most situations. Thanks, Jennifer Jennings 32:06 Jeff, yeah, we thought it was really important to make sure, like, across the studies, we gave the different types of entrepreneurial task, right? So that somebody could, you know, from the real world, couldn't criticize us, going, Well, really, you only give them one type of task, really, and it really isn't all that relevant a task, right? Brad 32:22 Or it's a lab and it's not real, yeah, exactly. Jeff York 32:24 So what do we think? Like, let's try hominin, like, what is the actionable insight we give, like, to female entrepreneurs from this? I can think of some things, but rather, hear what you think. Jennifer Jennings 32:35 Jen, okay, well, I'm interested in what you think as well, to be honest. Jeff, if you want to start or I and then, and then, maybe I'll correct it. That's perfect. So, Brad 32:50 first of all, this isn't a surprise to me, but it didn't come from my entrepreneurial career. Came through my academic career, watching the writing, yeah, teaching, because, because the the pool of people that I've been able to work with is much larger than anecdotal evidence, right, right? So for me, everything you say makes sense, but also one offs are really hard, right? There's always an outlier out there. So it's, so it's, it's very hard to judge, but I do know that in the venture capital world, even though women are maybe 2% of venture capital finance, their success rate is substantially higher than men. The ones that are actually get the financing. So I think that that's really important. And I think it's a fact that we should be yelling from the rooftops, absolutely. Jennifer Jennings 33:35 And I think what this study is showing to and why we should be yelling that from the rooftops is that our research, which would suggest that that's because those women, they probably got that VC funding for one of the reasons, being that they were, you know, they presented themselves as confident, right? But in the women's case, that's because they deserved to be exactly right, right? Because they can back it up actually, they're actually their entrepreneurial capability, yeah, would suggest that they actually do have what it takes, that that confidence that they're projecting is real. That's right, yeah. So exactly, that's one of the main messages, as you just said, Brad, that we want, would love to, you know, scream from the rooftops, absolutely. Yeah, yes. Cool. Jeff York 34:20 What do you think? Jeff, Oh, the other one I was honing in on is for like, because, yeah, we because, you know, we try to find actual insights, not just for entrepreneurs, but for teachers and, yeah, policy makers, and literally anyone who's not an academic. I think this has great insights for teaching. Because, like, I've been teaching entrepreneurship for like, 13 years now, I guess maybe 14 years. So my tendency, I guess, early on, was when I would see I would try to boost up, because I used to teach for engineers. That was the first entrepreneurship classes I taught. They tend to be less boisterous, quieter people all the time, not to be stereotypical. But you see this if right teach in the engineering school and then you teach in the business school, you will see different types of people in general, not all, but in general, definitely. And you try to, like, bolster them up and get like, Hey, you got to be really good. And I'm thinking like, as I'm saying or thinking this, I'm thinking like, well, if we know the finding is true that women tend to present as less confident, and they probably do in this context, we know that's true from the findings. Was I like honing my tendencies even more towards my female students to try to build them up more? And was I, like, doing that in a way that was actually disrupting what they intuitively were probably doing better, which is doubting their ideas at the at the ideation stage, like we weren't trying to, like, go out and do a pitch and raise funding. We were trying to do ideation and go test and learn, and at that point, I think teachability and learning and the willingness to pivot and to adjust and to actually listen to others is so much more important than confidence, exactly. And Jennifer Jennings 35:51 I guess, yeah, and I love it, Jeff, like the takeaway you have there, and the only tweak so I'm not going to correct you, I'm just going to tweak it a little bit for the PBA. Brad 36:00 Correct them all you want. I'll sit here all day and listen Jennifer Jennings 36:04 the little tweak I would have there would just be to take away the gender aspect. Because, you know, one of the other important implications here, right, is so if you were trying to, like, rah, rah, right, like, elevate all of your students, right kind of confidence level, but if you did so to a level where they collectively became overconfident, whether they were men or women, now you've potentially created that overconfidence problem, which, again, the second part of our study suggests can create problems down the road, right? And so, yeah, so like that just really warms my heart that both of these gateways is like, Yes, this is exactly what we would we were hoping would come out of this. But if Brad 36:49 you close your eyes and eliminate gender and you don't know who is presenting, it's all about show me the data, right? It comes down to whoever can show me the data. Show me that you have people that actually care about whatever problem you're being solved is being solved. And once you have someone confidence or no confidence, it still comes down to, is this problem relevant, and do people care about it being solved? And I think that if you have enough people working whatever their confidence, multi confident levels, right, all the this universe of confidence that, once they see that the data trumps all that's leveling as well. Jennifer Jennings 37:27 Nice. Jeff York 37:28 Anything else you want to talk about with the paper, generally, anything else we should take away from it? Jennifer Jennings 37:32 Well, just one, one little takeaway. And this was from a practitioner, so I gave it to someone, and she had her her partner read it, and he said, Oh, I think I get the gist of this study. And he goes, I think it's saying this that women aren't deficient with respect to entrepreneurship. They just aren't delusional. Yeah, nice, nice alliteration there. Using that one. I Jeff York 37:58 want to talk about devs paper too, but I think we're gonna split this into two episodes. What do you think? Brad, perfect. All right, cool. So once again, that was Jen Jennings, sorry. Jennifer Jennings, I just know you as Jen. The paper is challenging what we think we know, theory and evidence for questioning common beliefs about the gender gap and entrepreneurial confidence that entrepreneurship Theory and Practice, also known as etmp. You can pick it up down at your local 711 or on Google Scholar, because it's open access which a Brad 38:22 title, once again, is there like a requirement that your titles have 20 words, yes, Jeff York 38:29 and it must have a colon Dev Jennings 38:32 hit as many keywords. This Jeff York 38:35 is insane colon, long explanation that no one can write, yeah. And we'll be back to see if Dev Jennings title is similar to that, Faculty Director at the doing surfer entrepreneurship leads School of Business. Brad 38:50 I am Brad Warner and Jeff. This was a great episode. It was great. Thank you, yes. Jeff York 38:53 Thank you, and a quick shout out to our sponsors. JD, joyrides, if you want an E bike tour of murals here in Boulder, Colorado. Get on down there. Jdsjoyrides.com, and our other sponsored liquid mechanics over in lovely Lafayette, Colorado. Liquidmechanics, brewing.com, Amazing craft pier is brought to you in a beautiful setting and a lovely Taproom. Go check them out. We'll see you in just a few minutes. Or next time Cheers. Dona L 39:19 This episode of creative distillation was recorded on the front porch of the Chautauqua mission house at the reversing the arrow conference held in Boulder in June 2024 Jen's paper challenging what we think we know theory and evidence for questioning common beliefs about the gender gap in entrepreneurial confidence was published in June 2022, in entrepreneurship theory and practice. Check the show notes for a link and learn more about Jennifer Jennings on her faculty page at the University of Alberta website. You. We'd love to hear your feedback and ideas. Email us at cdpodcast@colorado.edu and please be sure to Subscribe to Creative distillation wherever you get your podcasts. The creative distillation podcast is made possible by the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado, Boulder's Leeds School of Business. For more information, please visit deming.colorado.edu. That's D, E, M, I, N, G, and click the creative distillation link. Creative distillation is produced by Joel Davis at analog digital arts. Our theme music is whiskey before breakfast, performed by your humble host, Brad and Jeff. Thanks for listening. We'll see you back here next week for the next round of creative distillation. You.

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From Flipping Couches to Building SellBuddy: The Startup Turning Furniture into Fortune

Emily Iliff — Thu, 17 Oct 2024 12:00:48 +0000

From Flipping Couches to Building SellBuddy: The Startup Turning Furniture into Fortune Emily Iliff Thu, 10/17/2024 - 06:00

Emily Iliff

Ever thought of taking the term “DIY” to the next level? Well, thats exactly what Josh Deal and Alex David set out to accomplish when satisfying their entrepreneurial itch.

Josh’s path to entrepreneurship began on a remote ranch in western Colorado, where he grew up without access to Wi-Fi until college. After enrolling at the University of Colorado Boulder, it was in a marketing class that he met Alex, his future business partner. Eager to make money, they started by experimenting with reselling items from Goodwill and Walmart, which ultimately led them to the niche that would launch their business, SellBuddy: flipping used furniture.

Their first major success came when they bought a sofa for $100, listed it on Facebook Marketplace for $900, and sold it within two days. Realizing the potential in reselling sofas, they rented a large U-Haul and spent an entire day collecting sectionals around Denver, making over $3,000 in profit by the end of the week. They also discovered that many people were eager to offload furniture cheaply, simply to avoid the hassle of moving it. This insight led to a new business model: offering to pick up furniture for free, selling it for clients, and splitting the profits.

At first, they stored furniture in five large storage units, transforming the space into a unique "drive-thru" showroom where buyers could collect their purchases. Eventually, the demand outgrew the storage units, prompting Josh and Alex to rent a 3,500-square-foot warehouse in Westminster and hire their first employees. As business continued to grow, they moved into a larger, 12,500-square-foot warehouse in North Denver.

In their early days at the new warehouse, Josh and Alex went all in- literally. They lived on-site for several months, converting an office into a bunk room and a mop closet into a makeshift shower. This dedication allowed them to focus on building systems to manage the increasingly complex operations. They initially tracked inventory on spreadsheets but soon realized they needed a more reliable solution, leading Josh to develop custom software to handle logistics and payments.

Today, SellBuddy is poised for further expansion. With efficient logistics, a solid software system, and minimal marketing needs, the business has grown quickly. Josh and Alex are now raising seed funding to support future growth and further streamline operations.

Navigating Challenges to Create a Tech-Driven Furniture Marketplace

Starting SellBuddy wasn’t as simple as Josh Deal and his co-founder Alex initially thought. At first, they believed their business would be straightforward: picking up furniture, selling it, and turning a profit. However, they quickly realized that over 100 things needed to align for each sale to be successful. Managing this complexity became their first major challenge. To streamline operations, they invested in software to automate as much as possible, reducing the manual processes to just two dozen key tasks.

One of the biggest hurdles was logistics. Although the furniture was free to acquire, the hidden costs of transportation, labor, and fuel quickly added up. Efficient routing became critical to minimize time on the road and maximize time spent picking up items. They had to fine-tune their operations to reduce expenses while still meeting customer needs. Balancing the inflow and outflow of furniture was another challenge. Too much inventory or too few buyers could easily disrupt their business, making precise planning and organization essential.

The second major challenge was marketing. SellBuddy functions as a two-way marketplace, where they connect buyers to a curated inventory they’ve already acquired and manage. Pricing products correctly required extensive research and machine learning algorithms to ensure a smooth turnover of inventory. Maintaining this balance between incoming and outgoing furniture was crucial, as any imbalance could either overload their storage or leave them without enough product to meet demand.

Technology also played a critical role. Josh emphasized the need for user-friendly systems, enabling customers to send a photo of their furniture via text and have it picked up the next day. While developing the software was complex, it became the backbone of their business, allowing SellBuddy to scale effectively. Leveraging AI and other tools simplified the process for both customers and the business, but building and refining these systems required constant iteration and problem-solving.

Looking ahead, Josh envisions expanding beyond furniture. While their current system addresses the pain points of furniture disposal, the long-term goal is to apply their logistics, marketplace, and software systems to other quality goods with life left in them. Their vision includes supporting the circular economy by retaining resources within the economy, refurbishing used products, and even recycling raw materials to manufacture new items. In the future, SellBuddy aims to help build a sustainable marketplace where resources are reused and value continues to grow- creating a more efficient, circular economy.

The Warrior Spirit of Entrepreneurship

For aspiring entrepreneurs, Josh offers clear advice: take action. He stresses that success comes from persistence, hard work, and a mindset of continuous learning. During SellBuddy’s early days, they spent months refining their process, even living and working out of their warehouse for long hours each week. Ultimately, he believes in starting quickly, experimenting, and iterating rapidly. As he puts it,

“Just pick up the furniture, and figure out the rest as you go.”

Josh’s advice for aspiring entrepreneurs doesn’t stop there. In the end, entrepreneurship defies a single, universal definition. As the Deming Center emphasizes, everyone has the potential to be innovative in their own unique way. Josh’s perspective captures the essence of entrepreneurship as a mindset: a blend of unwavering determination, resilience, and grit. It’s about possessing a “warrior spirit” and channeling that energy into building something from the ground up, despite the inevitable challenges along the way. To Josh, entrepreneurship isn’t just about starting a business; it’s about enduring hardships with strength and persistence, embracing obstacles as opportunities for growth. This mindset reflects the reality that while entrepreneurship is rewarding, it’s also one of the hardest journeys one can take: requiring both heart and tenacity to succeed.

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Innovation Through Collaboration: The Deming Center and Entrepreneurship Center for Music Join Forces

Emily Iliff — Thu, 10 Oct 2024 12:00:00 +0000

Innovation Through Collaboration: The Deming Center and Entrepreneurship Center for Music Join Forces Emily Iliff Thu, 10/10/2024 - 06:00

Emily Iliff

What’s the connection between live music and entrepreneurship? The Deming Centers’ recent Startups and Sandwiches event marked a unique collaboration between the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship and the Entrepreneurship Center for Music at the University of Colorado Boulder. Bringing together student entrepreneurs from diverse fields across campus, the session was a celebration of innovation, creativity, and cross-disciplinary learning.

Held in the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship, the event featured live performances by student musicians who are also entrepreneurs. Graeme Appel (Trumpet), Nathan Burak (Drums), and Maya Napolillo (Bass guitar), and their amazing musicianship articulated the importance of listening skills in playing their wonderful music. This provided a dynamic backdrop to the afternoon’s talk, which was delivered by Visda Carson, a professor at the Leeds School of Business, and Marilyn Brock, a professor at the College of Music.

Their presentation, "Listen Your Way to the Top," focused on the importance of active listening and how it can be leveraged as a skill in business and entrepreneurial ventures. Carson emphasized that listening is not just a soft skill, but a powerful tool for leadership, decision-making, and fostering innovation. Her insights resonated with the audience, who comprised students, faculty, and community members interested in entrepreneurship, whether through business or music.

A Harmonious Blend of Business and Music

This collaboration was not just a one-off event but part of a broader effort by both centers to bridge the gap between business and the arts, recognizing that entrepreneurial thinking can thrive in any discipline. The Deming Center for Entrepreneurship is known for its commitment to fostering innovation and providing resources to budding entrepreneurs at ��Ƶ Boulder. Similarly, the Entrepreneurship Center for Music is dedicated to equipping musicians with the entrepreneurial skills needed to succeed in today’s competitive landscape, where artistic talent alone is no longer enough.

The live music aspect of this event was a true highlight, showcasing student entrepreneurs who are not only musicians but also business-minded innovators. By combining performance with entrepreneurial conversation, the event demonstrated how listening skills and leadership can intersect to produce powerful results. Together, these two centers aim to create an ecosystem where students can learn, create, and launch their ideas into the world, regardless of their academic focus. This collaborative effort underscores the importance of interdisciplinary approaches in education, particularly in areas like entrepreneurship, where diverse perspectives often lead to groundbreaking innovation.

Startups and Sandwiches continues to grow as a key initiative, providing an informal platform for students to network, share ideas, and learn from experts in various industries. It encourages students from all areas of study to think outside the box and consider how entrepreneurial skills can apply to their passions, whether in music, science, technology, or beyond.

The collaboration between the Deming Center and the Entrepreneurship Center for Music during this event showcases ��Ƶ Boulder's commitment to fostering entrepreneurial talent across disciplines. By bringing together the worlds of business and music, they provide a space where students can learn from each other, innovate, and turn their creative ideas into viable ventures. Entrepreneurship is not confined to traditional business sectors but is a mindset that can be applied across all areas of life.

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Building Dreams: Jamie Saunders' Mission to Transform Housing through Affix Communities

Betsy Klein — Thu, 03 Oct 2024 19:36:49 +0000

Building Dreams: Jamie Saunders' Mission to Transform Housing through Affix Communities Betsy Klein Thu, 10/03/2024 - 13:36

For many young people in America, owning a home can feel like an unattainable dream. This was the case for Jamie Saunders, who leveraged her background in architecture and business to confront a problem that had been on her mind for years: the growing cost of homeownership. With a passion for design and an entrepreneurial spirit, she set out to uncover why homeownership had become inaccessible, and sought to create a solution. This journey would not only challenge her assumptions, but lead her into the world of entrepreneurship and innovative housing solutions during her MBA program.

During her career in architecture, she gained extensive experience working on both market-rate and affordable housing, primarily focusing on commercial multifamily buildings. However, her curiosity pushed her to rethink her career. When her sister, also a young entrepreneur, struggled to qualify for a large mortgage due to her self-employed status, Jamie began to ask herself: could her expertise be applied to create a better ownership option for first-time buyers?

Her sister’s challenges inspired her to dive deep into the root causes behind skyrocketing home prices. While earning her MBA at ��Ƶ Boulder, she explored ways to make homeownership more accessible.

How the New Venture Launch Shaped Jamie's Entrepreneurial Journey

Jamies journey took her through a variety of projects and competitions in the MBA program, including participating in the prestigious New Venture Challenge and the New Venture Launch. In the class and challenge, she refined her ideas, learned how to tell her story, and faced intense scrutiny from investors and industry experts, helping the creation of Affix Communities.

The New Venture Launch class provided critical support for Jamie by offering essential funding and resources that helped build a professional image through a website, logo, and polished pitch deck. Weekly pitching exercises increased her confidence and ability to handle tough questions from investors, while regular feedback strengthened their business idea. Additionally, the class helped Jamie develop a thick skin, navigate the entrepreneurial world, and sharpen public speaking skills, which are crucial for presenting to investors and winning partnerships.

Through hundreds of interviews and weekly pitches, her concept took shape, and her team gained valuable insights into the weak points of their plan. In the New Venture Challenge finals, her team secured funding to purchase land for a prototype: a critical step toward transforming her vision into reality.

When it comes to launching a new business, resources and support can make all the difference. For Jamie, the New Venture Launch class and the accompanying New Venture Challenge were crucial in turning an ambitious idea into a tangible, growing business.

Affordable Homeownership

Affix Communities is focused on providing workforce homeownership, a term beneath the umbrella of “affordability” that is often misunderstood. Workforce individuals may be teachers, mechanics, recent college grads, and even entrepreneurs, all of whom may face financial instability that makes securing a mortgage challenging are well-educated and gainfully employed, but they may still be unable to purchase a half-million dollar home (the median home price in Colorado in 2024 is $620,000). Contrary to common misconceptions, affordable housing isn’t just for those facing extreme financial hardship or homelessness. It’s for the everyday individuals who contribute to society, but still struggle to meet the demands of a booming housing market. Workforce individuals make up an enormous part of the American population, and yet they are being completely overlooked by most home developers.

With their sights set on Colorado’s mountain communities, where the need for workforce housing is particularly acute, Affix Communities hopes to scale their innovative concept. By offering smaller, more efficient homes, they aim to ease the housing crisis for workers in these areas, many of whom are priced out of the very towns they serve.

Affix Communities’ mission is simple yet impactful: to make homeownership possible for first-time buyers, providing a sustainable solution to a growing problem and helping individuals take their first step on the property ladder. Over the next five to ten years, the venture is set to redefine what it means to own a home, providing a lifeline for first-time buyers and working professionals across the United States in need of affordable housing.

The journey starts with a prototype. By the end of 2025, Affix Communities plans to complete its first project: a mountain duplex made up of two units. This prototype will serve as a crucial testing ground, allowing the team to gather data on construction costs, manufacturing optimization, and opportunities for installation efficiency. With this information in hand, the next step is scaling up. Over the following three years, they plan to work up to their first full-scale community of 70 to 100 units, capturing greater efficiencies by streamlining utility work, foundation construction, and bulk ordering prefabricated homes.

Cutting Costs and Empowering Buyers

So, how does Affix Communities cut costs for buyers? It comes down to three key strategies: creative uses of land, prefabrication, and design. Land is often the largest barrier to affordable housing, sometimes costing upwards of $300,000 before even factoring in the cost of the home itself. Affix Communities tackles this problem by proposing a unique business model: rather than owning the land outright, buyers can opt to lease it. This ground lease approach allows for more affordable entry points into homeownership, detaching the cost of the house from the land.

Additionally, the company plans to build these homes prefabricated in a factory, which will reduce build time, and increase quality control. This approach eliminates weather delays, (which is particularly important in mountain communities), and enables mass production, further driving down costs.

Another innovative cost-saving feature is the design of the homes themselves. The Affix design gives homeowners the option to rent part of their home on platforms like Airbnb, generating additional income to offset their mortgage or housing costs. This optionality is achieved via a lock-off area that includes its own private entry, bedroom, and bathroom. The homeowner can stay on the other side of the home, while renting out the lock-off on weekends, or other times when short-term rentals earn surge pricing.

In the next decade, Affix Communities envisions not only providing an easier path into home ownership, but creating thriving affordable communities for people of all different walks of life. By thinking outside traditional single family home development models, they hope to empower people to take their first steps toward ownership. These homes are not just places to live; they’re opportunities to help everyday Americans get a toehold in financial stability and begin their own journey to grow wealth, designed with long-term impact in mind.

This article was written by Emily Iliff with contributions from Jamie Saunders.

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Creative Distillation - Episode 68: Matthew Grimes, Professor of Entrepreneurship and Sustainable Features at Cambridge University

Emily Iliff — Thu, 03 Oct 2024 19:34:53 +0000

Creative Distillation - Episode 68: Matthew Grimes, Professor of Entrepreneurship and Sustainable Features at Cambridge University Emily Iliff Thu, 10/03/2024 - 13:34

Emily Iliff

In this episode of Creative Distillation, hosts Jeff York and Brad Werner from the University of Colorado, Boulder, are joined by Matthew Grimes, Professor of Entrepreneurship and Sustainable Futures at Cambridge University. Matthew is in Boulder to co-host the Global Entrepreneurship and Innovation Research Conference (GEIRC). As always, the hosts and guest enjoy a selection of craft beverages, including Sibson D-branded bourbon and unique sour beers.

Jeff and Brad open with updates about their summer, highlighting Jeff's return from Hawaii, Brad's flight from France, and the scenic beauty of Jeff’s Boulder ranch. They also introduce their dog, Ranger, and talk about two upcoming conferences. The conversation then shifts to Matthew Grimes, who shares his preference for sour ales, leading the group to sample a D&D-themed whiskey and a metal-themed pale ale, before diving into the adventurous world of sour beers.

The discussion becomes more academic as Matthew introduces his research paper, "Living Up to the Hype," which explores how new ventures manage the balance between future-oriented visions and the realities of impact investing. The paper examines the role of hype in entrepreneurship, with case studies on social stock exchanges in Singapore, London, and Toronto. The group reflects on the rise and fall of these exchanges, highlighting the role of social proof and tangible goals in sustaining hype.

As the episode progresses, Matthew shares insights on how entrepreneurs can balance hype with fundamentals, build credibility, and tackle challenging problems. The conversation covers the importance of social proof and celebrity endorsement in driving hype, along with examples from Matthew's consulting experience. The episode wraps up with a toast to creativity and innovation in entrepreneurship, as the hosts thank Matthew for his thoughtful contributions.

Transcript

welcome to another episode of creative distillation. Your host Jeff and Brad from the University of Colorado, Boulder's Leeds School of Business, discuss entrepreneurship research while enjoying fine craft beverages, Dona L 0:21 this time on creative distillation. We gather at Jeff's ranch where he and Brad speak with Matthew Grimes, Professor of Entrepreneurship and sustainable futures, and co director of the Cambridge judge Entrepreneurship Center at Cambridge University's judge School of Business. Matthew Matthew is in Boulder as co host of gurk, the Global Entrepreneurship and Innovation Research Conference held at ��Ƶ Boulder earlier this summer, and at which we recorded several of this season's episodes. He joined our host a Sibson D and D branded bourbon as well as a couple of rather exotic sour beers selected by Jeff, and discuss how and whether to appreciate sour beer and marvel at the ever expanding universe of beer weirdness. They also make time to get into a recent paper, co authored by Matthew, which addresses the perils of hype to entrepreneurship and proposes an emergent theory of heightened management. Enjoy and cheers. Jeff York 1:24 Welcome to Creative distillation, where we distill entrepreneurship Research and Action Plan sites. I am your co host, Jeff York, Faculty Director at the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the Leeds School of Business at the University of Colorado. Boulder, joined by my co host Brad Brad 1:38 Werner and Jeff, it is great to see you, and we work together at the Deming center. And now, though it's summertime, Jeff York 1:45 it is summertime. We are in the midst of enjoying the summer of academic relaxation, Brad 1:52 but we also have some really cool events coming up at Deming. We Jeff York 1:54 do have, we do? Yeah? We do okay. Brad 1:58 We have two conferences. Yes, Jeff York 1:59 yes, yes. We have two conferences, and we're gonna talk to one of the guests of those conferences. But first, let's just catch up real quick. Where did you arrive here to Well, first of all, where are we? Brad 2:10 So we are actually, for all you young entrepreneurs out there, do not believe that there is no money in academia. We are actually recording at the Jeff York ranch in the mountains of beautiful Boulder, Colorado, actually, just west of Boulder. And I'm looking at mountains cattle. I'm looking at your cattle herd, Jeff, I can see the town in the distance. And I would say this is a really beautiful place. Academia does pay. Jeff York 2:36 I don't know about that, but thank you very much. It's awesome to have you guys here. We just enjoyed a lovely dinner outdoors and our ketchup. And Brad, you just arrived this morning, last night, last night from Brad 2:47 So I flew in from the south of France to talk to you for a week, because we're going to do some really cool things. Jeff York 2:52 Yeah, absolutely. And I just got back from Hawaii. So you know, it's a tough life. We're having a terrible summer Hawaii. Yeah, it's rough. But anyway, I'm here at home for a while, so it's nice. It's nice to be here. Brad 3:05 The ranch is great. Jeff York 3:07 We're also joined by my dog, Ranger, rangers here. Ranger, if you hear a thumping noise, that's his tail hitting things, because he's loves Brad. And we are also joined by our guest. We're very excited to have a professor of entrepreneurship and sustainable futures, as well as the co director of the Cambridge judge, entrepreneurship sir, from the University of Cambridge. Or is it Cambridge University? I always get that wrong. Either one will actually work. Well, okay, I'm right then, University of Cambridge. Excellent. Nice. Judge, cool business professor. Matthew Grimes, thanks for joining us. Man, great to have Brad 3:38 you. Yeah, it's great to have you here. And by the way, Matthew as a repeat guest? Jeff York 3:42 Jeff, yes, we have very few repeat guests. We're actually we're getting creative distillation swag. Yes, the rumor is it's been ordered. So next time you come on, Matthew, Not this time, this time you get nothing. I did get dinner. You did get dinner. You get the dinner, and you'll get to sample some fine things here, but next time, we may have schwag. Matthew Grimes 4:03 Schwag, yeah, something that you count me in one Brad 4:08 of your Harry Potter dinners, so Jeff York 4:09 you'll take any international flight from wherever you are. Yeah, I never got to do the Harry Potter dinner. I was so bombed like I did not get to sit at the high table and look down upon the students of my academic robes. I really want to do that. You would have loved it. I would have loved that. That'd be great, you know, anything where I can, like, you know, wear academic robes and look down on people. Yeah. Well, okay, so, so we're gonna sample some beers. Matthew has expressed a preference for sour ale. So when we're doing these, well, first of all, Cambridge is, if you've if you've missed our previous episode where we've talked about the Global Entrepreneurship and Innovation Research Conference, as we like to call it, gurk, Matthew Grimes 4:50 just a great Jeff York 4:52 acronym that, you know. What else be trying to steal our acronym, gurk? Are you going to the gurk? You know? I mean, it sounds good, right? For sure, it apparently works as lots of people, we had to turn people away from this. Yes. So Matthew is the representative from Cambridge University, and is here in town as our co host, along with the Darden School at the University of Virginia. And you might have this episode where we spoke with him and and my clinics a little bit about the history of the conference. If you hadn't just rewind, go find that one. It'll say the history of the gurk, and you'll know you're in the right place. So Matthew's here. We're going to talk about, we talked about the conference of the other episode, but we want to talk to him about his research, because we thought his research was pretty interesting, and before the podcast, we did sample this. So first of all, Brad's microphone is on a book that he's really interesting Brad 5:40 heroes fest. It's one of my favorites. Here is feast. Well, that's Matthew Grimes 5:46 the other one. Yeah, the Brad 5:47 official dungeon and Dragon cookbook, yes, oh my god. And by the way, the cover art is just Jeff York 5:53 incredible. Nope. We sampled a DND themed whiskey from questions distillery. Queston is founded by the actor I'm probably gonna mispronounce his name, also Matthew Lillard. Lillard, I'm sorry. Lillard played shaggy in Scooby Doo. 2002 you're a big fan of the Scooby Doo. Brad 6:16 I've never seen the Scooby Doo. Matthew Grimes 6:17 Oh, the trilogy. Jeff York 6:20 Yeah. Anyway, so I don't know anything about Matthew. He's a d&d enthusiast, and he's created this company that does bourbons based on d&d classes. So you looked at the bottle and what were your thoughts? Okay, so Brad 6:35 the first time, when you showed me the bottle, Jeff, I actually thought it was a joke. Matthew Grimes 6:39 Bourbon. I'm like, Brad 6:40 How would bourbon for Dungeons and Dragons? Jeff York 6:44 Who would buy it? Yeah. Well, Brad 6:45 I know, I know the one person that would buy it, but after tasting it, it was actually very good. It's actually a pretty good price. So teasing aside the bourbon is Yeah, and I'm shocked to even say that, yeah. So Jeff York 6:58 we'll have a link. Go check out questions if you're into DND or just bourbon. Brad 7:02 So is D and D now a drinking game, or has it always been? Jeff York 7:05 I kind of think it always has. Well, I called my campaign dungeons and flagons so, you know. So I was thinking, because we're gonna be drinking a sour Ale, Brad might like to have some other beer on hand as well. You're a good man, Jeff, and we won't be able to taste it after the salary, so we've already applied him with quests and Rogue. Now we're gonna have true Brewing Company scorn. Scorn is a pale ale to keep with our d&d theme. This Brad 7:35 is truly incredible. I mean, talk about a market this d&d world. So true Jeff York 7:39 brewing is like, we're definitely gonna get down there. If anybody from true brewing hears this, I love you. I love your brewery. Where are they? We're coming down there. They're in Denver. We're definitely coming down there. I don't know where they distribute to, but it's one of the best breweries in Colorado, in my opinion. And what's really cool about true brewing is they are a metal themed brewery, like as in metal music. So all their, all their branding and labeling is like weird names, like, I've also got apparition Pale Ale, but this is scorn, and it has a cracked skull with like beer poured on it. Is how I interpret it. I don't know if that's what they intended on a black label. And I first found them on Halloween one year. Of course, I was going to a party, and they were out of pumpkin beer because it sells out before Halloween, because everyone loves it so much. So I was like, oh my god, what am I gonna do? They sold out a pumpkin beer. I was faced with this tragic situation. So then I saw a beer that had a Jason from, like, Friday the 13th, like character out with a chainsaw. There you go. And regularly bought it, and I've been in love with true brewing ever since. It's a fantastic brewery. Yeah, we need to go down there. you go. Cheers, try it. Brad 8:50 Cheers, cheers, cheers, sir. See you guys. Joel, happy summer. To everyone. Jeff York 8:55 Happy Summer. They make so many beers, especially these kind of sours and lagers. But this is just a pale ale they make that I find really, really good. So this Brad 9:06 brought me back to my Chicago days. It reminds me of Gumball HUD. Really had Gumball head. Yeah, Jeff York 9:10 it's an IPA though. Yeah, it's Brad 9:11 just, for some reason, it's what I thought of when I Jeff York 9:14 come I haven't had in a while. That's three Floyds, right? Yes, we were talking about that with some Chicagoan. Yeah, I don't know. So to me, it's got, like, a really, like, nice biscuity malt flavor, kind of a toasty malt flavor going on in the background, not a lot of hop heaviness, just a really good easy drinking beer, perfect accompaniment to questions rogue. I mean, just look at them together. Does that? Joel, you knew that that'd be a good photo. There's your photo for the podcast. These are fine beverages. Zoom in and I endorse these beverages. I know. What else I endorse, bread. What I endorse, bicycle tours of Boulder. Me too, but I don't know. Where could I get a bicycle tour of Boulder, and particularly if I was interested in seeing the beautiful murals here Brad 9:58 in town. Is there such a offering? I don't know, Joel, is there such an offering? As Joel Davis 10:02 a matter of fact, there is an offering. It's called JD joyrides. Oh my god. And we'll show you around boulder. We'll show you a good time on two wheels. And Brad 10:12 where can we find information for about JDS joyrides, Joel Davis 10:15 jdsjoyrides.com JDS joyrides.com Jeff York 10:18 Fantastic. It's awesome. Our very down, I'd love to ride with you. Our very first sponsor. Very excited to have JDS Joy rides, official sponsor of creative distillation. Had to remember the name of the podcast. I'm really good at marketing. I can't remember the name on a Brad 10:36 podcast. So the amazing thing, though, we need to take a moment here before we bring Matthew in is to talk about 60 plus episodes. Jeff, well, I mean, right? I mean, to me, Jeff York 10:46 what do you think about 60 plus episodes? Oh, I mean, I just, I think it's here for one year, 222, Matthew Grimes 10:52 now, yeah, you know, part of the game is survival, right? And Brad 10:57 I'm looking at through our list for the week, though, and Matthew's gonna be repeat guests again. Oh, he's gonna Jeff York 11:02 be a three fur Yeah. So Brad 11:04 we Jeff York 11:05 also have another official sponsor. I don't know if you knew this, Brad, no, but liquid mechanics brewing, located over there, just over the hill from Boulder. Lafayette is the town. It's a great brewery, by the way, there's a fantastic brewery. You can check them out at liquidmechanics brewing.com they have agreed to be our other official sponsor. Seriously, yes, they have. It's very exciting. Cheers. I love that. And you probably are hearing even before this episode, you might have heard the actual Brewer and founder leading a beer tasting. If you want to rewind in time and find that there's episode with Professor Tony Kong, and that one took place at liquid mechanics. We met Devin, the who is, of course, a buff. Brad 11:46 Yes, he is, I love about liquid mechanics is in on this? Yes, we're very excited. It really is a great brewery. It Jeff York 11:52 is a great brewery. Okay, now to get down to business, Matthew, I have here for you a Colorado sour beer made by what I think of as the most adventurous brewery in Colorado. Some may disagree with me, but I don't think they will another place. We have not done an episode that I very much want to, and Brad probably will not want to after we taste this beer. But they make all kinds of beer. They make the wildest variety of beer of any brewery. I think of what we have here is a weld works Brewing Company over in Weld County, Colorado, Okay, Grandma Jay's strawberry rhubarb pie sour ale. Oh, my God. And this is sour ale. Matthew Grimes 12:32 I'm reading the can sour beer. Sour beers are named very, very poorly Jeff York 12:36 with strawberry and rhubarb puree, vanilla bean graham cracker and milk sugar. It says, keep cold drink. Now, dialed in beer. Let me give you a small sample, because this is thank you very good beer. Brad 12:50 Okay, I appreciate that. Though, this one's good, though the first one was really good. Oh, yeah, oh, I Jeff York 12:54 gave you that. Hold on to that. Brad 12:55 I feel like this is hazing. It's not, oh, this Jeff York 13:00 is Matthew's choice. Brad 13:01 This is Matthews. So Matthew, what is your before we even taste this, what is you? Tell us about your story with soccer. Jeff York 13:07 We got we I just want you to smell this sucker before it phase. Brad 13:11 Oh, my God. Matthew Grimes 13:13 Wow, the strawberry shortcake. Jeff York 13:15 Yeah, strawberry rhubarb pot. Wow, Brad 13:18 somebody's attic. Matthew Grimes 13:21 This is the official beer of gurk. Jeff York 13:27 Really well, Grandma J's strawberry Rupa pies, the official beer of gurk. Matthew Grimes 13:33 So are we gonna taste this now? Brad 13:35 Yes, we'll talk about Matthew Grimes 13:39 Whoa. Okay, okay, that's interesting. Jeff York 13:42 I mean, so here's the thing, like, I know, oh my God. What's your impression? Is this a Do you really Brad 13:53 like this? Yeah, I mean, like you would. I don't even know an occasion where I would open this. I can't even imagine something, Jeff York 14:04 this official beer of Kirk. So that's Brad's reaction. I don't even know an occasion where I would ever open this. Oh, my God. Quote, you put down the can. Brad 14:16 And this is a good one, right? Jeff York 14:16 I don't know. What do you think, Matthew? I Matthew Grimes 14:18 mean, this is probably one of the more adventurous sour beers I've tasted. He did ask. I went big in general. I would say that sour beers are one of the more adventurous beers, just generally, you know. And this one is particularly so. Brad 14:35 So how did you get into them, though? Matthew Grimes 14:38 I mean, the novelty factor is a big factor, which actually ties into the topic we'll discuss later on. But so there is, there's a, you know, there's a novelty to it. And I think that this was toward the end of my Nashville day. So I was, like, I was winding down my PhD in Nashville, and they were just starting to come out with these sour beers. And so there's a. Bit of nostalgia with it. You know, a lot of people have talked about how I see I actually probably have some questions about sour beer. Maybe Jeff, you can answer these. But like I've been told that this is a more healthy beer. Is that? Is that not true? Yeah, because if you taste this, Brad 15:17 you only drink one. Jeff York 15:22 I don't think there's any truth. No, in fact, like, you know, at least the research I've Matthew Grimes 15:27 read, the fermentation, any, nothing, nothing. Well. I Jeff York 15:30 mean, what people are saying, like the lactobacillus, like with it's the Matthew Grimes 15:34 kombucha of beers, almost, sort of. I mean, there's, do you like kombucha? No, see, so there you go. Yeah, it has a similar kind of, yeah, like acidity and Yeah, somebody Jeff York 15:46 gave this to you and told you it was kombucha. You probably believe it, right? I mean, I guess I really like this. I think it's amazing. I mean, it tastes like strawberry pie, Brad 15:56 Grandma J's strawberry. I Matthew Grimes 15:58 mean, the after the aftertaste is, it was a bit weird at first, but it's a, it's actually a, it's actually pretty good. Well, the Jeff York 16:03 first sip of it like every Okay, here's the thing with sour beer too. If you're like Brad and you take one sip, you will never like them, because you'll take that one sip, and what happens is your taste buds get hit with all the lactobacillus, which is what most of the sours derived from. And it just like, hurts. It's like painful. It's much like drinking, like, you know, a double IPA, like, you know, your first sip of like, it's just hops and it like, actually, will burn your throat a little bit. And the same thing with sours, like, you can't even taste them in the first sip. Usually it just is, like an overflow sour. But as you taste a few, take a few more sips. Come on, try What Matthew Grimes 16:37 does what does this say about my social identity that this is the beer like, like, if, if I had a choice of beers, I'll always choose sour beer. Like, what does that? What does it say about that? You Jeff York 16:50 want people to think that you are a bold, adventurous outlier type? Matthew Grimes 16:56 Okay, I Jeff York 16:56 would say, I would say Brad 16:58 it's just that you're perfect for this podcast. Jeff York 17:02 I that's how I would interpret as a social so, like, Well, I mean, it depends, like, your social identity, it would be like, so what group are you trying to be? Yeah, Matthew Grimes 17:10 exactly. Like, what Jeff York 17:11 is it I sort of misinterpret. I Matthew Grimes 17:13 was thinking, well, because, I Jeff York 17:14 mean, I would say how you would interpret a social norm around, I wasn't thinking about social identity. So social identity, I mean, what people Matthew Grimes 17:20 would you be? Your choice says a lot about a lot about a person's identity, social identity, right? When you say, so, I guess Jeff York 17:27 I don't know. What do you think it says? Matthew Grimes 17:29 I don't I don't know what the demographic is that. So, okay, so Jeff York 17:32 to be Matthew Grimes 17:33 like, who's buying these? Brad 17:35 Oh, well, I would just say some idiot. That's all I would need to know about the person? All right, I've had five steps like to get through that Jeff York 17:45 tasting different. Brad 17:46 Oh no, it actually does mellow out, right? But sourness at the beginning, after a few tastes, that goes away. It chills out. But, man, this Jeff York 17:54 is so here, what's here's what's crazy about this beer to me, is it like you taste the sourness? Yes, okay, fun. It's not really that sour. I mean, like a lamb beak from, like, from Brussels, correct, a real one is, like, really. I mean, that's just thing, nothing there but the sour, like smack, and maybe a little horse blanket flavor to go with it. That's a flavor descriptor for that. But, um, all right, so to balance this discussion a little this is actually, I mean, it's not a typical sour beer at all. Like I said, this must be adventurous brewery I know of, maybe anywhere, but certainly in Colorado. I'm sure there's more adventurous breweries in Belgium and other places. But, um, what's crazy about this beer is the layers of flavor they got in it. That's what's nuts. It's like, just as an achievement of brewing, it's kind of insane. So you got sour, right? Okay, yes. But then you do taste, I taste strawberry. I definitely get a hint of the rhubarb. Oh yeah. Then I taste vanilla, and then the graham cracker kind of comes through at the end. I mean, I taste all those things now as a power suggestion of me reading the can, maybe, I don't know, but I can pick up all those flavors and tasting this, and it's kind of an amazing I agree. I agree. Brad 19:00 I agree that the flavors are there. The problem is, is it doesn't go away. It just it's still in my mouth from a SIP maybe two minutes ago. Those flavors last, Jeff York 19:10 yeah, no, it really lingers. Yeah, that's the problem. It's kind of amazing. Brad 19:14 I mean, I'm sure, as a brewing, a brewing challenge, awesome for a customer, no way. Jeff York 19:20 I don't know. They're pretty damn successful. I'm Brad 19:22 sure they are just, I'm Jeff York 19:23 not entirely this sells for 20 bucks a four pack, probably. Yeah. I mean, now as though that wasn't enough. Brad 19:32 Now, Matthew, would you order this in a if you knew this was coming? Would you order this? Matthew Grimes 19:36 Yeah, yeah. I would. Jeff York 19:38 I think about sour beer. You have to develop a taste for it. You're probably going to pick it up and drink your first one and react like Brad, but if you persist, yeah, it's Matthew Grimes 19:49 like coffee, yeah. Do you like coffee? Brad 19:52 Yeah? So an IPA is a gateway beer to sour, Jeff York 19:56 huh? Maybe, maybe because IPA certainly. It tastes very different. No, like a lager, right, right? I would say just drinking craft lagers is, like, kind of a gateway, like, oh, wow, these people made a German pillsner Instead of drinking a Miller. I mean, Brad 20:11 there's a difference, for sure. Jeff York 20:12 Yeah, I don't know. Have gotten so weird now, like, because there's so many craft breweries and it's just like everybody, I don't know it's, beer is like a ever expanding universe. Yeah, it is. Matthew Grimes 20:25 I mean, the combinations I you know, in general, I would say that the have now having lived in the UK for six years and coming back to the US, like it's always a place where people are very willing to experiment. It's in a way that other cultures just don't have that kind of same experimentation urge. Jeff York 20:43 Who couldn't have given me a bare segue into our next beer. Also a world works creation. I just happen to have two world works sours. Matthew say one sours. I said I got two sours. We're next trying. Bam, bam, Rubble. Rubble, bam, bam, Rubble. Rubble says sour ale. And then if you look over in the corner, it says with fruity rice cereal, strawberry, vanilla, marshmallow and milk sugar. I'm Brad 21:10 gonna get ready for that. Jeff York 21:16 So I'd say you need to cleanse your palate. But not really. Brad 21:20 That's amazing to me, though, actually, as well, well, county is a very conservative County. It is that base this type of brewery there. To me, I wonder how they pulled that Jeff York 21:29 off. I really want to go interview them and find out amazingly successful. I mean, they they're really known for their they make an IPA called juicy bits. So if you're looking for a weldworks beer. Look for something called juicy bits. They mostly are known for those. These are kind of, we're definitely delving into the deep cuts of weldworks. Here we go with, bam, bam, Rubble. Rubble, cheers, and Matthew Grimes 21:51 bam, bam, bam, cheers, rubber. Rubble, cheers, Jeff York 21:55 gas smell at first. Because, Matthew Grimes 21:58 wow, okay. Oh Jeff York 21:59 okay. Yeah. That's, I mean, you guys, obviously, oh Matthew Grimes 22:02 yeah, the fruity, fruity bubbles, yeah, Fruity Pebbles. Come on, come on. That's, that's crazy genius. Yeah, Brad 22:08 I'm just still thinking about it. Matthew Grimes 22:12 Yes, that's good. What's interesting with, with both of these beers is the is the aftertaste, Jeff York 22:21 speak, I Brad 22:22 can't speak. It's interesting to watch me or, yeah, for sure. I mean, I'm just, I'm still thinking about the customer profile. Who drinks this. Matthew Grimes 22:34 Yeah, I'm trying to figure it out. Jeff York 22:37 I bought it. I did not buy these for the podcast. Brad 22:43 I don't even know how to explain this, but there's a taste in my mouth so bad, and I want it. I'm trying. I'm drinking water and the IPA, and it still doesn't go away. Whiskey, Jeff York 22:54 we've got, they've got more, more. This Brad 22:57 beer is so good, it takes whiskey. You need a whiskey Chaser to get rid of it. So this beer is nuts. Yeah, it's nuts. Bet I agree. I Jeff York 23:07 actually don't like it as much as I like the grandma Jay's strawberry rhubarb pie, but I do think it's really interesting. The most interesting thing going on in this is the marshmallow. Brad 23:18 Okay, so that's I think I have a problem with that right there. I don't want my beer to taste like marshmallows, really. I know if somebody can figure out how to do that, I still don't care. It's kind of like a solution looking for a problem, right? That we're going to make this. Jeff York 23:33 But I actually was wondering about that a little bit with this beer. I'm really, I really want to ask them, like, did they just make something that they thought tasted like fruity pebbles, or were they, I think, I don't think so. I think they were aiming to make something that tastes like, yeah, yeah. I Matthew Grimes 23:48 mean, they had to think, I think Jeff York 23:49 so. How else do you How else do you decide to make this like? I mean, you must have, there's very strong intent here. I Matthew Grimes 23:56 mean, it could be a lot of experimentation, or there might be, you know, direct intention, Brad 24:02 they're experimenting. This is, they're an amazing brewery. We Jeff York 24:05 definitely got it. Okay. So what do you think of their nephew? Of bam, bam, Rubble, Rumble. Matthew Grimes 24:11 Yeah, I'm a fan. I'd order it again. Jeff York 24:13 Do you like it? Or, or the strawberry rhubarb pie? Matthew Grimes 24:16 I think one of the challenges is that, with the rhubarb, yeah, that was the first taste I had. So it was coming off of, like, you know, drinking glasses of water all of a sudden. It's like, you the intensity was, was potent, right punch in the face, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whereas, whereas this one had the benefit of, like, actually having a sour before it, but I, but I will say, you know the bam, bam, Rubble, Rubble, Rubble, Bubble, bubble, Rubble, Jeff York 24:45 bam, bam, Rubble, Rubble, bam, with two b's. Anyway, if you're out there, for some reason, you have an association with what works. Get in touch. We want to come visit you not quite meant that. Same goes for true brewing and. And if I doubt Matthew Lillard is going to want to talk to us, since I butchered his name and we haven't seen his movies, Matthew Grimes 25:05 but let's talk more about Matthew. Jeff York 25:08 We like his whiskey. We like his whiskey. Oh, so anyway, well, we're going to talk about paper with Matthew here, because this actually is pretty a little pertinent to the conversation we've been having about sour beer. I think so. This appeared back in 22 not that long ago, while back in the academy Management Journal volume 65 number three, living up to the hype, Brad 25:31 that's the first part. We should just stop there, right? Jeff York 25:37 Okay, keep going. All right. How new ventures manage the resource and liability of future oriented visions within the nascent market of impact investing. Matthew, Brad 25:47 how'd you come up with that one? Well, I Matthew Grimes 25:50 went down to the local, local brewery. Brad 25:54 There we go. There's our connection. Jeff York 25:56 So this paper, the lead author is actually Daniel Logue, who's at the University of New South Wales with Matthew Grimes. So So tell us about the paper, Matthew, what were you guys up to in this? Matthew Grimes 26:06 So Danielle and I were actually co students together during our master's work at Oxford, and so really, yeah, Jeff York 26:14 knew each other as master went off and did PhDs, yeah? Matthew Grimes 26:18 So she stayed in Oxford and continued on, I went back to the states and pursued my PhD at Vanderbilt and and then several years later, she had approached me about this really interesting data set that she had where she was looking at kind of impact investing for several years. And one of the recent kind of innovations within the context of the impact investing market was this idea of social stock exchanges, the idea that you could, you could create these organization, you know, basically a stock market that would funnel capital towards ventures with with an impact, impact focus. You know, this was coming out of really early kinds of organizing that was happening around impact investing in the late 2000s and at like, one of the launch events, there were three different founders in different areas of the of the world that all founded these social stock exchanges at the same time, one in Singapore, one in London and one in Toronto. And so being able to actually look at these organizations that were being launched at really the same time, with the same business model in mind, and trying to take advantage of all of this cultural momentum that was building these expectations and excitement and attention that were being drawn towards the whole impact investing space, and these organizations are trying to take advantage of that growing hype to basically try to change the way that we finance new ventures, but different impacts, Brad 27:48 right? Each, each venture was kind of focused on a different in a different universe. Matthew Grimes 27:53 Yeah. So these, these were very they were independent organizations with against very similar business models operating in kinds of, I mean, yes, culturally speaking, I mean, Singapore is different from London. There's different from Toronto. But at the same time, we're talking about, you know, highly financialized countries where, you know, relatively speaking, these are all, you know, similar kinds of, similar kind of development level economy, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So thinking about what, what you know, how did these organizations go about this process in similar or different ways? How were they taking advantage of the hype, but also, how were they managing all of the growing expectations that were that was essentially building around them? And so there's this tension that motivates the paper, between this idea that hype, on the one hand, is this really interesting short term cultural resource, right? It provides opportunities for ventures to mobilize all kinds of additional resources around what they're doing, and yet, at the same time, it also creates this long term relational liability, because there's growing expectations of, well, you need to deliver on, on all of this promise that you've, you've, you've guaranteed. So there's kind of temporal compression there that happens where it's like, show me the money and then, and then, in addition, there's kind of categorical compression where, in other words, like, there's a there's a compression in terms of your ability to pivot, right? So there's growing expectations that say you need to kind of stay the course, and you need to show results. And so that the elevated expectations around these ventures. So there's this real tension, like, how do you do you embrace the hype around you as a new venture, or do you manage expectations in a way so you don't, you don't actually engage the hype directly, you know, to avoid a situation where there's, you know, essentially unmet expectations, Brad 29:55 right? I mean, if you over promise, it's dangerous exactly Jeff York 29:57 just as just looking. Like. So when we talk about hype, yeah, you know, I think it's interesting that you're defining that as like a academic construct, because it's not something we normally think of. And you guys say hype is a collective vision and a promise of a possible future around which attention, excitement and expectations increase over time. Isn't there like, a bubble though, I'm sure it's part. I mean, like, you know, I'm just thinking, like, we all teach entrepreneurship, right? Yeah, and we all got, how many of the bitchers in the last year did you see had something to do with AI? Yeah, yeah. Like, it's just, Brad 30:34 I want to get short AI so badly. Jeff York 30:37 Yeah, right, right? I mean, but we, we, I think unlike Well, I mean, most people experience hype. They read the paper, they see about this new thing that's coming out or whatever. But I think we experience it as as entrepreneurship professors, on a much more visceral level, because our job is to guide students in the process of starting to think about ventures. And we see these waves of hype, at least, I think we do is that what you're talking about here, like, Matthew Grimes 31:01 well, so that, I mean, I think there's different ways that we talk about hype, like, one is, one is? We talk about it oftentimes as a form of deception, right? That there that essentially, is this real or is this mere hype, right? He said, Don't believe the hype, right? Don't believe the hype, right? So there's an assumption that, essentially, hype is either over promises or some some form of deception. So that's one way that we talk about it. Another way that we talk about it is this idea of hype cycles. Yeah, so, so I, prior to academia, I spent time in the world of consulting, working a lot of with Chief Information Officers for this company called CEB was a consulting firm that did a lot of research. It was ultimately acquired by a company called Gardner, which actually produces the hype Hype Cycle model. So that, you know, I was looking at these hype cycle models a lot in my consulting experience, and essentially, what they suggest is that there's this kind of trigger point where, you know, you can think about it as kind of the launch of the public beta of chatgpt, or the public release of chatgpt in what, late November of 2022 right? There's a trigger event that, ultimately, you know, contributes to an expansion of resources and attention that so it's that upward side of the slope there. At some point in time, there's so many suppliers in the markets as their supplier proliferation, and the promises are so great, because everyone's competing for attention, that ultimately, you know, there's no way that those promises can deliver on the expectations, and at that point in time, the sort of media attention actually flips. So there's sustained attention, but it's actually negative and criticizing it, where you see kind of the collapse of the market. So there's a lot of consolidation around suppliers that leads to this kind of trough of disillusionment, where ultimately, you know, this is actually where a lot of the hard work of building out second order use cases actually starts to take place, and then that leads to some kind of plateau, ultimately. And so this is the the kind of an evolutionary diffusion model of hype, right? So hype is a cycle, but there's another interesting kind of phrase that we use sometimes in talking about hype, and it's, it's the title of the paper, this idea of living up to the hype, right? How do you actually deliver on these grand promises? And I think that that's, that's at the heart of what we were trying to do with this particular paper, is to say, Okay, well, if we think about hype as deception that doesn't really capture all of the nuance and dynamics of what's going on, because it's not. You can only know whether hype is an over promised post hoc after the fact, like you can. You can look back and say.com, bubble. So now you could say, oh, well, that that's that was just hype, right? Jeff York 33:58 But then Amazon, I would argue, as right, there were well, well beyond what gonna be a bookstore in that swell guys. And we were like, swell, and it was, and now it's so much more than that, frighteningly so. But like, you know, it's interesting, some people actually over deliver, like, Matthew Grimes 34:19 right, precisely. And so this is the idea that that there's we might associate the idea of hype with fads or market bubbles, that assumes that there's always going to be a collapse. And actually, social scientists have have looked at the actual data around the diffusion of innovation, and those patterns do not necessarily map to the hype cycle model that has been become popularized by Gartner. Now I think it's a useful heuristic, like when I teach exec ed or teach MBA students on the topic of hype I'll usually show them this model, because I think again, it's a useful heuristic for understanding this is generally how perhaps. Perhaps, on average, technologies tend to evolve, but just because that may be the mean doesn't mean that everything's going to follow that sort of pattern. And so I think you're, I think what's quite interesting, and what's usually interesting with qualitative research, is that you can explore the outlier so you can see how have people actually lived up to the hype? And this is why we, you know, we were really interested in doing running the comparison here, because it was like one organization completely collapsed. Sadly enough, that was the London social Stock Exchange. Another sort of pivoted out, you know, away from the kind of grand vision of the social Stock Exchange to something where they were more focused on something they could, like, tangibly deliver, which was like impact bonds. And there was just a lot, there was already a lot of conversation around this, so it was just easier for them to deliver on simplified. Yeah, exactly. So it kind of pivoted to something that was, it was simpler. And then, you know, actually, the Toronto exchange was very thoughtful about its approach in how it engaged, engaged with hype, and how it essentially built relationships around the kind of platform ecosystem that it was creating, and so it was generating social proof. Because again, like one of the things that's hard about living up to the hype is that you've got these really long term visions of what you're trying to achieve. But the question is, how can you actually deliver on these really long term results in the near term? Well, you can't, and so traction. So how do you show traction? We show it through social proof. You don't have material proof, but you can, you can deliver social proof. Measuring impact, though, is still difficult, correct, totally. But you have to essentially build the kind of network and ecosystem and like and support that's going to finance your runways. I mean, this isn't at one point in time. The title of this paper was about it included the term entrepreneurial runways. The reviewers ultimately stripped it out because for us, like that was, that was what was happening. Was this, you know, the challenge of managing the cash flow as you were under delivering on these really grand promises. Brad 37:11 That's really interesting. And so I'm thinking about the hype. I'm thinking about the way that you explain it. Though the timelines had to be explained properly, too, right? So the timeline at the early stage, obviously, you're never going to do everything right, but to at least set expectations for, Hey, folks, this isn't a two year play. This is a 20 year play or whatever that worked, I think would be critically important, Matthew Grimes 37:36 yeah. And in some ways, you have to get, you have to get people to buy into an abstract, long term, long term vision, and that requires, I think, a willingness to, sort of, you know, sustain commitment, even though, even though it looks like there's no tangible results, and then, you know, coming, coming through, right? But, Brad 37:55 I mean, I see the Gates Foundation doing that, when you kind of look at some of the projects that they fund, yeah, yeah, I don't know. I think this is, this is interesting, because I do, when you first said it, I'm thinking hype equals fad, yeah. And that's, that's the dangerous part, but it's, it's, it's more this vision part. And how do you actually fund a vision where you can't show results, or at least positive results, in the shortage Jeff York 38:16 more into what you mean by social proof? Because I don't trust something everybody listening to this is gonna be like, Oh yeah, I know exactly what he Matthew Grimes 38:22 means by what he means by that. Yeah. So, I mean, I think, you know, there's ways that we talk about this in practice, like, you know, well, you need to go out and build social proof, right? And what does that mean? Well, it means that you're, you're showing the letters of intent that you've generated through potential customer sales, right? Or you're showing that other investors are interested in Jeff York 38:42 validating interest, yeah, building the chain of belief as well, yeah? Matthew Grimes 38:45 Or you're, you've got the right advisors or board of directors in play, right? And so if you can build the ecosystem around what you're trying to do, that matters, and what we actually show, for instance, like the way that London approached this, they do wrong. So they actually, they actually connected in, like in the very beginning, they were given space in the London Stock Exchange building. They had the Prime Minister helping to launch the launch, the the main event around it. And so really cranking Exactly. So it was, it came out of the gate, just right away, strong early alliances, exactly. But in a way, that was all about the celebrity associated with social proof, right? Like, look at Theranos, for example. I mean, it's hard to talk about hype these days without talking about about the Theranos case, to not bring it up. But yeah, it's hard. It's yeah, I mean, but that's because it's just such a good example of exactly what we're talking about, which I mean, if you look at, for instance, the board of directors at is probably, yeah, is probably the most prominent board of directors of all time for a startup. Yeah, right. Yeah. I mean, it was unbelievable. And yet, when you show when you just look at the picture of all of the people on that board, and you show that to students, it's almost embarrassing, right? I mean, it's all these old white men that know absolutely nothing about the technology or the science. And so I think celebrity can buy you some degree of temporary social proof, but it can be fleeting. Yeah? Dangerous? Well, yeah. Brad 40:26 I mean, Theranos was fraudsters too, right there. Well, fire Jeff York 40:29 festivals and other, oh yeah, Ja Rule, whatever, it's gonna be fine. Yeah? So it's so interesting, and it's like in the world of like social media hype is, I mean, it's an art form. It's what influencers are paid to do, yeah, to generate hype around products, yeah? And I think, I think we're celebrity, the more, the better, the more celebrity like we can get. You know, Kim Kardashian to drink grandma Jay, strawberry rhubarb pie, sour ale. Matthew Grimes 41:00 Yeah? Brad 41:00 I mean, Matthew Grimes 41:02 technology has this unbelievable amplification effect and speed of amplification, yeah, that's right. And so it's, it's really been for the process of hype. I mean, it is, it's just explosive. Jeff York 41:17 I mean, so it's so hard as I think, like, as we think about like an entrepreneur, a new entrepreneur. It's so easy to buy into hype. It's like the London Stock Exchange is going to let us on. Well, of course, we're going to do that. The Prime Minister wants to go. Of course. You know, John rule wants to be on. All right, great. George Shultz will be on our board. Okay? It seems like it's almost could be a distraction, right? Of like, I'm doing this thing and it's building height and heightening the expectations, but I think you raise a really great point, and perhaps this is a, I don't have the sound effect, right, but perhaps it's an actual insight that, like, actually like focusing on, and you'll probably articulate this much better. And I will, Matthew, but I'll try, like, focusing on the celebrity aspect of hyping your product, rather than the authenticity legitimacy, like actual, possibly emerging. You know, I mean, it's like, it's so easy to build that buzz instead of actually working on getting the product to market. Matthew Grimes 42:25 Yeah, a lot easier. It's true. I mean, well, you can spend all your time trying to, trying to learn about the, you know, the various kinds of algorithms, and optimizing your messaging around those algorithms. I mean, that can be hard work in itself, right? So actually creating hype, right? It can be challenging. And a lot of a lot of organizations you know are desperately trying to figure out how to Jeff York 42:48 messaging stand out, like, actually, I mean, it's almost impossible. I mean, it's very difficult, Matthew Grimes 42:52 yeah, but it can. It can be a huge, a huge distraction, if, if you don't have your fundamentals in place, and if you're not thinking critically about the sort of broader interdependencies and and systems that you're trying to generate, particularly in nascent markets, where you're having to build the legitimacy of the market, right, and so and so Hype. Hype is not just legitimacy. That's Hype. Hype is fleeting. Legitimacy is is there's a there's a permanence and a stability to it, and so, but the the key is figuring out how you actually, as you generate this kind of precarious resource that is hype, how do you not fall off that cliff, and how's it actually turn it into Right? Like, how do we legitimacy? Jeff York 43:35 How do we take this hype and then transform it into actual reality, right? So, how do the people that do it, you talked about building an ecosystem, say a little more about that, like Matthew Grimes 43:44 so for instance, like with the with the the Toronto exchange, right? The contrast here was pretty stark between London, for instance, and the way that Toronto approached it, right. So what Toronto did was they, for instance, looked at a partnership with the B Lab, right? So this is the organization behind B Corporation and the B impact assessment. So, so again, we come back to fundamentals. One of the really hard things about impact investing is what it's about, measuring, measuring impact actually? Yeah, how can you actually figure out how to how to measure what social or environmental impact looks like, maybe environmental impact is possibly a little little easier to quantify, but actually, you know, measuring social impact extremely difficult, and so a lot of the these in in London and the way that Singapore approached this very different to the way that Toronto said, Well, we're going to partner with the people who are, you know, serious about building expertise around measuring impact and assessing that impact. And so those kinds of systems of support, and it was local and global, right? So what they were doing was building out lots of credibility with local stakeholders. Embedding in those networks, even as they also connected in with these prominent experts in the global market, like B Lab. So Jeff York 45:09 what I'm hearing from what you're saying is like to actually properly take advantage of Hope hype. Obama did a pretty good job, right? Matthew Grimes 45:22 So you laugh at that. But like, I mean, I was giving this talk at Boston College, and one of the folks in the audience was like, Well, how are hype and hope related, right? Because, because there's a recent paper in ASQ that looks precisely at Hope cultures, like cultures of hope, published by the person who asked me this question cite Jeff York 45:43 their paper. I Matthew Grimes 45:44 believe I did, because I think there is an interesting connection between hope and hype. Yeah, Jeff York 45:51 well, because hype is, I mean, it's building the hope that this positive future is going to be real. That's right. So for, like, individual entrepreneurs there and find themselves in emerging market in, like a hype cycle. And, you know, I mean, I think it's hard for us to, I mean, maybe, maybe you disagree. I mean, I think it's hard to advise someone that jumps into like a market because of the hype, it's just, oh yeah, it was what we see our students doing all the time. Well. I Matthew Grimes 46:14 mean, let's, let's be honest. Like, it's what, it's what we as academics do as well, of course, right? Like, I mean, when you see a special issue emerge, like, Okay, so there's a new special issue in AMR coming out, and Jeff York 46:26 we're special people. How do you know if you're a special person? How did you have to ask you're not Matthew Grimes 46:36 so I mean, this, this special issues on AI, and how many papers do you think are being going to be submitted to God, yeah, it's gonna be 300 Yeah, the the most submissions, probably, of any special issue ever, right? So we're editors, so let's, let's not deceive ourselves that like this is just that hype. Is only something that our students follow, right? This is something I think we all professionally are thinking about, and is that the wrong approach to to follow the hype. What was Brad 47:01 your surprise in doing this research was there was there a finding that really surprised you? Matthew Grimes 47:05 I think the surprising thing is that that the right response to this is not either just completely embrace the hype, grow your market to the point at which you are able to you know your market share, you're able to capture rents from the system and then drive down, drive down prices, and then create efficiencies of scale, right? I mean, because that's one model, right is to is to use hype to just grow, grow, grow, before you actually look at your fundamentals. But at the same time, it's also not the lessons, not the opposite, to just run away from hype, because hype is just deception. It's just a lie, and it's just noise in the system. So you need to avoid it, right? It's both of these things, right? And so, so even just the fundamental, that fundamental nature of hype, and recognizing it as both resource and liability, and seeing that the way, the way in which you navigate that actually matters to your longevity. That was surprising to me. I'm not sure, I'm not sure why, but I think maybe it's because, because the again, I came out of that model where I saw hype always as this kind of faddish tendency. It was like part of the part of the cycle, the hype cycle, where you're always going to see a collapse anytime there's hype, I think that this is, for instance, if you Google artificial intelligence now, you know what's the likelihood that the article is going to mention the word hype pretty high right now. So is that an indication that everything that is happening around artificial intelligence now is just noise in the system. It's just, it's over promises. I mean, some, some will argue that, yes, in fact, that that is what we're dealing with. But I think there's a lot of people out there that that see this as as, again, like a technology and innovation, a growing ecosystem that is ultimately going to deliver and live up to that hype, Jeff York 49:04 or well beyond, in ways. I think the other thing is all the unexpected externalities, both positive and negative, for sure. I mean, you know, we all, we all were around during the.com boom, and, you know, I'm sure we remember how the Internet was going to solve all, oh yeah, all the world's problems and and indeed, he did solve many problems, but also created all sorts of problems that no one ever I mean, I don't remember anyone ever talking about. You know, this could have a really negative effect on people's mental Brad 49:36 health. Important part to focus on. Also, though fundamentals matter, right? You still need to execute. You still need to build gold standard, whatever you're building, yeah, and you need to be in touch with your customers, and, sorry, build Matthew Grimes 49:48 the relationships around everything, and look at the hard problem and solve that, right? So when I teach on hype, one of the things i i show you, know, I show an illustration of you. A monkey on a pedestal, and the monkey is reciting Shakespeare. And I, and I asked, Are you familiar with this before? Okay, so, you know, and you ask them like, which would you do first, if you were, if you were trying to, you know, build this business that's based around a monkey who can recite Shakespeare on top of the pedestal. Would you build a pedestal first? Or would you, or would you train the monkey to recite Shakespeare? And usually, like, I'll get half a room that will say, I build, I build the pedestal. The other half of the room will say, I try to train the monkey. And so you ask, like, Well, why? Why would you build the pedestal first? And he's like, Well, that's the easy thing to do, so you can show momentum, right? Right? But ultimately, if, if right, solving we know, we know you can build a pedestal, right? That's what we don't know, is whether you can train the monkey, right. And so solving that really hard problem and showing progress, showing proof, showing evidence, actually matters. Brad 50:57 There's our actual insight. You got your bow or I Jeff York 51:01 don't, I think we might abandon the bell this. I have enough confidence our listeners that they'll know an actionable Brad 51:07 I think that was that, though that was really amazing. I Jeff York 51:10 really that was very well. Said. Anything you want to add about the paper? We haven't talked about Matthew. I think we've kind of captured the actual insights from it. It sounds awesome. Yeah, yeah. Matthew Grimes 51:19 I'm excited to have it out there. It seems like the field is starting around it starting, you know, at some point in time I'm gonna write, I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna write a book, and the title is Jeff York 51:30 gonna be hype. I hope you do the papers living up to the hype. How new ventures manage the resource and liability of future, oriented visions within the nascent market of impact investing, Brad 51:43 take a breath to actually get through that. Jeff York 51:45 I still Matthew Grimes 51:47 think it's better than bam bam, Rubble, Rubble, Jeff York 51:49 that's a pretty bad title, although I gotta say I do want to comment a little bit on bam bam, Rubble, Rubble. I would have said at the beginning of the podcast that grandma J strawberry rhubarb pie was my favorite. Bam, bam, Rubble, Rubble. As it warms, it's getting like, the flavors kind of blending together. Yeah, Matthew Grimes 52:05 I really enjoyed it. Yeah. I finished it off. Jeff York 52:08 I finished I finished off grandma's room. No, there's Brad 52:10 some more overhead. Jeff York 52:12 We'll be all right. Well, thank you for joining us once again. I'm Jeff York, your host, joined by I'm Brad 52:18 Brad Werner, and this Matthew, this was great. And of Jeff York 52:21 course, we were joined by Matthew Grimes, Professor of Entrepreneurship and sustainable futures at Cambridge University. Thanks so much for joining us, Matthew, Matthew Grimes 52:29 thanks for having me. Oh, I should also mention that I'm the co, co sponsor of gurk. Gurk, Jeff York 52:35 Dirk, go. Gurk, official beer of gurk, strawberry rhubarb. Putt. I don't think it will be. We'll find out. No, stay tuned to the next episode. Find out if strawberry grandma J's strawberry rhubarb, but actually is the official beer of ger car. Something displaces. All right, see you soon. Okay. Cheers. Dona L 52:57 This episode of creative distillation was recorded on location in Jeff's ranch above Boulder, Colorado. Matthew Grimes paper, living up to the hype how new ventures manage the resource and liability of future oriented visions within the nascent market of impact investing, was published in June 2022 in the Academy of Management Journal. Check the show notes for a link. Learn more about Matthew Grimes on his faculty page at the Cambridge Judge Business School website. We'd Dona L 53:28 love to hear your feedback and ideas. Email us at cdpodcast@colorado.edu and please be sure to Subscribe to Creative distillation. Wherever you get your podcasts, the creative distillation podcast is made possible by the Deming Center for Entrepreneurship at the University of Colorado Boulder's Leeds School of Business. For more information, please visit deming.colorado.edu that's D, E, M, I, N, G, and click the creative distillation link. Creative distillation is produced by Joel Davis at analog digital arts. Our theme music is whiskey before breakfast, performed by your humble host, Brad and Jeff, thanks for listening. We'll see you back here next week for the next round of creative distillation. You. Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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